[Mystery] Immortality

[wyrdhamster]

Once again topic on possible ways to "attain" something. Watched today Witches of East End and thought that maybe cool would be to come with some ideas on topic - How Awakened can become immortal?

Only restrictions is no clearly Left Hand Paths - no Tremere, no soul swapping. Only things that could be used by the the character without hurting others. Also, we write about normal Awakened here, not Archmasters that are immortal by nature.

In Witches of East End is one cool idea like that - Characters are "cursed" with being reborn, over and over again, whenever they die. They die. are born in next bodies ( looking exactly like previous ), Awaken and die from magic one again. I assume it's powerful Fate spell ( probably Making one ) with a large dose of Life, am I right?

Other way for the "normal" immortality for the character is becoming the spirit - It's, literally, the end goal of Scions of God Legacy.

[WHW]

Immortality that is "live until you are killed" seems to be pretty easy. Time at 2 should stop you from aging, Life can optimize your lifespan and later probably flat out replace aging pieces with brand new youth ones, and so on. Your biggest problem is probably running out of "subtle" substancies, like Mind (yo, your mind needs certain hygiene to function properly, and I imagine that human mind has certain point after which it simply breaks down, even if you shielded your body from rotting), Fate or something.
Of course, "live until you are killed" is not very reassuring for Mages, who often *are* killed.
True immortality, "no dying whatsoever", that sounds tricky.

EDIT
Practical shot at near-immortality would be probably Time 2 for Age-Shielding and Death 2 for it's armor attainment. Time shield to make sure your body and mind do not rot away, and Death attainment to survive accidents, because it was described as temporarily gaining vampiric resistance to damage.

[atamajakki]

I suppose one could always grow soulless clones of themselves and then swap their minds into them, which borders on mad science but isn't exactly Left-Handed. If you're okay with abandoning your physical form, I'm sure immortality as a bodiless Astral entity is quite feasible, and I believe there's been something written about transforming into a spirit as well.

Using spells to prolong one's life sounds terrifying, as they would always be open to dispelling unless they were Legacy attainments, no?

I have to wonder what using Prime to become immortal might look like; becoming a being of pure Pattern and Nimbus, unfettered by the world around you with permanent Mage Sight? It could be fun.

Of course, Archmastery is immortality in a sense, right?

[WHW]

Yes, I think that even DaveB said somewhere that they gave up on making "easy immortality" hard, because they realized that in practice, *just* setting up spell combos is pretty easy to disrupt by someone pointing finger at you and saying "Dispel Magic". So while it's easy to make your character Forever 21 Never Aging, it's hard to live forever in practice. So it's cool at the start, but after 30 years or so, Mages probably start on trying to find some more premanent solutions that are not reliant on ongoing spells.
And of course, bonus points:
Imagine a Mage who uses his life prolonging magic on his best friend/spouse/favorite pet, and gets himself killed off, relinquishing the spell on the unsuspecting Sleeper. Blessing at first, easy to turn into curse.

[Prometheus]

Step 1: Create a body(ies) with Life 5.

Step 2: Use Mind to start controlling your created body and to put your original one into coma.

Step 3: Make the area in which your original body is into a place with indefinite Time Stop spell. The area is a subject of the spell, not your body.

Step 4: Use your created body. When it is destroyed/dies of old age, just create a new one/use a spare.

Step 5: Wait, until medicine gets to the point when it will keep your body up indefinitely without magic.

If the Time Stop spell is ever dispelled, the body inside won't know that it is supposed to age, because from its perspective no time has passed.

Step 6: Profit.

[arthexis]

I already mentioned it on another topic, but I will repeat it here: There is no point to immortality in Mage, or in any role-playing game for that matter, unless the game is actually built around it. Vampires are already immortal but they have plenty of drawbacks. In that game playing around the drama of being immortal and dealing with the drawbacks sets the tone of the game. You will very rarely play a game where your immortality actually comes into play (except of course, regeneration which is much more useful that simple agelessness) but the drawbacks themselves are the meat of the game, thus its fun.

In Mage, technical immortality is possible with the right combination of spells and pacts, but of course, the drama itself would come from the drawbacks. If you are immortal with no drawbacks, there is nothing to gain in the game by being immortal, since it will never come into play in any practical sense during the session. Of course, it could be a good plot point for a character to "seek" immortality, that's a fine quest. But actually achieving it is irrelevant.

However there is one important thing in which immortality can impact the Mage setting: old Masters. The setting already deals with most immortal mages by either making them Archmasters (which tucks them away thanks to the Pax) or by making immortality monstrous, which means they are great and scary NPCs. With 2e, there is a new class of potential old Master, what I call "technically immortal" which are Mages that are preserving their humanity and/or functional levels of Wisdom, but are just a few dispels away from getting killed. I think this is a good compromise. These new technically immortals are probably not powerful enough as Archmasters or monstrous immortals, thus they don't upset the ecosystem as much. They are probably using their current immortality as a stepping stone or time buffer to get a hold of some greater truths, most important of all: Ascension.

In fact considering how many failsafes you might need in practice to protect your technical immortality, it might be more productive to quest Ascension from the start, and if your time is running out, then yes, maybe consider extending your lifetime to keep at it if you need to.

[wyrdhamster]

I already mentioned it on another topic, but I will repeat it here: There is no point to immortality in Mage, or in any role-playing game for that matter, unless the game is actually built around it. Vampires are already immortal but they have plenty of drawbacks. In that game playing around the drama of being immortal and dealing with the drawbacks sets the tone of the game. You will very rarely play a game where your immortality actually comes into play (except of course, regeneration which is much more useful that simple agelessness) but the drawbacks themselves are the meat of the game, thus its fun.

And I do not agree with you - Immortality is great plot device with "your centuries old enemies" catching you in modern times. It also great way to explore Dark Eras, stories based on other historical times. And whole "you looks like this girl from 1800s" is also nicely adding a twist and problems to characters life, especially when she is dedicated to sustaining the Veil. Just look on the Vampire.

With that - let's rise the stakes in topic - How to turn OTHERS immortal, as form of "curse" on them? "You will walk forever alone, till the end of times!" stuff. And when I mark curse. I do mean based on all possible Arcana, not only Fate spells.

[Isator Levi]

I've had this sense that, in the face of possible magic to make it a bit easier to preserve one's body for extended periods of time (although possibly not as easy as some people would assert), mages would develop different standards of what constitutes "immortality"; pursuit not of an apparent indefinite resistance to decay or injury, but of a kind of fundamental permanence, of becoming an immovable fixture. Ascension, as generally understood by mages, is the most obvious form of this, but their might be some theory as to others. This is mostly because, like many big deals for magic, I prefer the idea of it as a Mystery for mages to search out, rather than a particular spell that they have to cast.

Archmastery is immortality in a sense, right?

In the sense that, while they're a soul, there's nothing to really age; at any time outside of their Golden Road, they're subject to normal mortality unless they should use some magic to prevent that. I believe Dave or Malcolm once elaborated on this being a basis for most archmasters to technically not be immortal; they can practically get what they'd need of it anyway, and many will have reservations about using such magic upon themselves.

I think that even DaveB said somewhere that they gave up on making "easy immortality" hard, because they realized that in practice, *just* setting up spell combos is pretty easy to disrupt by someone pointing finger at you and saying "Dispel Magic".

That and trying to develop the significant taboos mage society has over the use of such magic.

[MCN]

Make a homoculus that resembles an idealized version of your body. Use Mind 5 to transfer self into homoculus body. Rinse, repeat.

There's that Death 5 spell from the original core book. Steal lifespan, or something?

Faerie Glade Time 5 magic.

There's the Life spells from Grimoire of Grimoire that functions like a Philosopher Stone.

Striking deals with supernal beings.

Those are some I remember off the top of my head that don't involve messing with souls.

[Falcon777]

Depends on if this is 1e or 2e. 2e spoilers make explicit that whatever causes you to age is "hardcoded" into the universe such that any attempt to be alive past a certain amount of time since you were born is met with vengeful opposition.

In 1e, however, the life spell from grimoire of grimoires heavily implies "Age of Adeline" aging mechanics where if you can stop your aging your body won't rapidly decay if the spell isn't kept up or it's dispelled.

Honestly the latter is far more interesting to me as it places Life as the superior arcanum for dealing with how your body works in relation to aging. Death is still clearly second and important, but not necessary. Another reason I prefer the latter over the former is that there are people in real life who are old and frail, yet still have very sharp minds and wit. This gives a degree of separation from your mind and your body, further emphasizing the idea that if a person's youth were preserved, the rest of the person wouldn't decay with time (excepting things like emotional damage from family and friends dieing). The latter also gives the benefit towards the idea of a cosmic lifestrand tied (possibly tied into your DNA, which is to me very interesting concept). The rate of decay never changes as little bits get snipped off every year, so delaying such snipping (because even if you cast the age stopping spell a million, trillion times, you haven't eliminated aging as a part of your template, just suspended it) shouldn't affect how it happens afterwards. This also introduces interesting alternatives to suspending the snipping such as stretching your strand or taking another strand and adding on to yours (both have obvious negative side affects).

Obviously my opinion isn't canon, but I simply dislike the idea of rapid decay following the destruction of the preservation of your youth. It's too commonplace, and quite frankly gives far too easy a way to kill an extremely (over 120 years) old wizard (presuming that he used such a method).

*Sigh* Then again, this is world of darkness and there's far more of the mechanics that I actually like than the setting. If that offends you just ignore this post.

[Joker]

Yes, I think that even DaveB said somewhere that they gave up on making "easy immortality" hard, because they realized that in practice, *just* setting up spell combos is pretty easy to disrupt by someone pointing finger at you and saying "Dispel Magic".

Though that stops working once Legacies enter the picture. If the spell you are using to stay alive is an attainment Dispel Magic isn't an issue anymore.

[Prometheus]

Also, there are *markedly* different rates at which normal people age*. Imagine, how the 2e Life 2 Attainment improves on that and then how much more can you do with spells and Legacies. Maybe this could finally be a good healer Legacy. Its Attainments don't only heal diseases, but also literally add to your lifespan. And are not dispellable.


*I'll just leave this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-bv3YvgXf0

[Gideon]

As a side note, if you are looking at other thoughts on immortality, the "WOD: Immortals" book is a good read: Blood Bathers and Body Thieves. Plus an essay on immortal life..Some strategies would ruin your mystic abilities, but such is the price one pays. I have used a Ridden NPC to tell stories of ancient Babylon, and introduce some ancient immortals to a campaign.

[Isator Levi]

Time 2 for Age-Shielding

I wonder how this will work practically; you can't be completely devoid of transitions, so if you're already at an age at which it is possible to suddenly die of organ failure or blood clots or something... It just got me thinking about the practicality of constant spell maintenance as a method of extending life; when you're younger, your mortality might be so distant and abstract as to make the hassle of constantly maintaining a spell with no immediately gratifying effect not really seem worth it, and by the time you're reaching the age where it feels necessary, you're also most vulnerable, if only to the spell failing and then expiring in the short aftermath.

[wyrdhamster]

I'm very much would like see "curse" angle - Maybe Fate spell that rewrites your Destiny "you will live until you fulfill this objective"?

As a side note, if you are looking at other thoughts on immortality, the "WOD: Immortals" book is a good read: Blood Bathers and Body Thieves. Plus an essay on immortal life..Some strategies would ruin your mystic abilities, but such is the price one pays. I have used a Ridden NPC to tell stories of ancient Babylon, and introduce some ancient immortals to a campaign.

I try to stick with this topic on idea of "casual" immortal Awakened - no Left Hand area, no bathing in blood or body stealing. And to let immortal mages be still spell casting mages.