[Open Dev]Signs of Sorcery-Introduction and Advanced Mage Sight

[Michael]

I doubt that was the intention. Dave has been pretty vocal about not crossing Mage with the other lines.

[branford]

The only thing that slightly puts me off about the open dev is the line that the vast majority of mysteries aren't Supernal. I don't like to crossover Mage with other game lines because, quite frankly, I find Mage to be vastly more interesting that other game lines (I can play Werewolf and enjoy it a lot, but in my Mage, Werewolves are Mages with solid Life Arcanum ratings). Is it going to be a very abnormal campaign, perhaps not playing as intended, if I run Mage without bringing in stuff from Vampire, Werewolf etc? The Spirit World and the gauntlet, sure, ghosties and that, sure, but I'd prefer not to have to bring stuff from Requiem or whatever into the mix.

You can choose whatever Mysteries you want in your chronicle. I believe Dave's (and OP's) intent is to ensure that Mage cosmology doesn't overrun or dominate the entire CofD setting, and they've been insistent for quite some time that the Supernal is just a very, very small slice of the supernatural world.

Moreover, the Shadow and spirits, the Underworld and ghosts, and most everything else you can think of, regardless of whether it is explicitly included or inspired by the CofD book or other gamelines, are already not actually part of the Supernal World yet still ripe for Mage shenanigans. In fact, many of these ubiquitous setting elements will be included in the new Made core.

[Solar]

I hope so! All the Supernal specific stuff sounds absolutely wicked for sure and I am really pumped for that (as I always am with DaveB's stuff), I just hope it's not defined by being the minority of the mysteries a Mage encounters. Ideally for me, all the mysteries a Mage encounters tie back to the Supernal, as the Fallen World is made up purely of the shadows of the Supernal as they filter through the Abyss.

[Satchel]

The only thing that slightly puts me off about the open dev is the line that the vast majority of mysteries aren't Supernal. I don't like to crossover Mage with other game lines

Cutting in here to point out: Does not follow. Even without getting into the stuff that Mage's three core non-Supernal otherworlds bring to bear, Weird Shit isn't confined to gameline-specific phenomena. "Most of the strange things mages encounter are not the direct work of other mages" is pretty much all it means.

[atamajakki]

The only thing that slightly puts me off about the open dev is the line that the vast majority of mysteries aren't Supernal. I don't like to crossover Mage with other game lines because, quite frankly, I find Mage to be vastly more interesting that other game lines (I can play Werewolf and enjoy it a lot, but in my Mage, Werewolves are Mages with solid Life Arcanum ratings). Is it going to be a very abnormal campaign, perhaps not playing as intended, if I run Mage without bringing in stuff from Vampire, Werewolf etc? The Spirit World and the gauntlet, sure, ghosties and that, sure, but I'd prefer not to have to bring stuff from Requiem or whatever into the mix.

There are plenty of Mysteries that aren't Supernal or crossover. Tokyo's anti-magic zones aren't either of those, while a more general topic like "past lives" or "local UFO sightings" can be all sorts of things.

[branford]

Ideally for me, all the mysteries a Mage encounters tie back to the Supernal, as the Fallen World is made up purely of the shadows of the Supernal as they filter through the Abyss.

While you can certainly play that way if you choose, it is definitely not the default setting for Mage and the general CofD.

Most canon supernatural phenomena are definitely not Supernal in origin. However, supernal magic still provides all (or most) of the necessary tools to investigate all supernatural phenomena regardless of origin.

[Freemind]

To add: the Abyss isn't Supernal. That means plenty of Mysteries that won't stem from the Supernal that are going to be exclusive to mages... Horrible, reality shattering Mysteries.

[Nicolas Milioni]

symbolic places called Manteions like the Nevada test range or the ruins of Troy that are themselves magical symbols usable by mages

So. Manteions are place that are so important and epic that they become supernal symbols? Are they places that are reflecting by the supernal world isntead of reflecting the supernal world?

[Axelgear]

I wanna raise my own disquiet to this, too.

I like Mage as a game about Truth. I like the idea that there is always some grand, cosmic answer all Mages are chasing; some final intuition always beyond the horizon, within which lies some absolute peace and happiness they all desperately crave. Union with God, Nirvana, Moksha, the restoration of the Adam Kadmon, solving the final equation in a grand Theory of Everything...

Whatever it is, I like Mages chasing that Truth; emotional, moral, philosophical, aesthetic, scientific, whatever. As long as they are chasing A Truth, I am happy.

That Truth, to me, is what the Supernal Realms exemplify: A grand, unifying understanding, hidden behind a world of Lies, an Abyss of ignorance, and a veil of symbolism.

This love for the idea of Mages seeking a Grand Unified Theory isn't without its flaws. It is a major cause of the ever-frustrating Mage Supremacy arguments (wonderfully smacked down by, I think, Satchel by comparing them to particle physicists), but I consider those a necessary price of the setting. If the Supernal is not the source of all reality it is not, and cannot be, the Truth.

I welcome the emphasis on "Not all Mysteries are Supernal", in the same way I welcome the reminder that not all science is particle physics. The Supernal may underpin the Tapestry, but vampires and spirits and werewolves draw their power naturally from the occult laws of the Fallen World; they draw on the Supernal in the same way a rock does to be hard or a tree does to grow, but no more. In a way, Mages are almost cut off from a layer of complexity others have infinitely greater acuity sensing, understanding, and wielding. They must start to understand such things from first principles. To continue the analogy, just because you know the rough structure of the atoms that make an elephant up, and the energy and types of bonds they form, doesn't mean you understand their migration habits, yet alone anything else.

However, if one completely divests the Supernal from its role of underpinning the world, you make the Supernal little more than a battery with which to charge a Mage's spells. It ceases to be a font of knowledge beyond anything it manipulates. It is merely another oddity, however grand. Mages may as well seek truth in Changeling Arcadia, as they will most certainly no longer find it in their own.

So that's my take. In summary, disabuse players and characters alike that they're omniscient and know best, yet alone know all, but it'd be preferable to do so without undermining one of the setting's best elements: The search for Truth.

[MorkaisChosen]

Nothing I've seen gave me the impression that the book was doing anything other than what you want it to do. May be a difference of interpretation; I was definitely getting a "most mysteries aren't Supernal magic" vibe without feeling like Mages weren't looking to understand them in Supernal terms.

Hell, that's reinforced by the fact that any of these can be Obsessions and grant Arcane XP - you can increase your understanding of the Supernal by unravelling any mystery, whether it's based in direct manipulation and manifestation of Supernal symbols or is as Supernal as a rock or a tree.

(And then we add Legacies and the like, many of which can be viewed as driving into the easily-overlooked mysteries of what it means to be a rock.)

[Nicolas Milioni]

I think that throwaway mention of "Pentacle mages drawing upon the Exarchs" did more for me than the entire rest of that preview. Woof.

ah the pentacle,how i lovd those hypocrites

[atamajakki]

ah the pentacle,how i lovd those hypocrites

Well, the Supernal is a realm of symbols and forms, and the Exarchs are just some especially unpleasant symbols...

[nofather]

Plus it's not as if they were always enemies. The first Seers were factions in what would eventually be the Diamond.

[Nicolas Milioni]

Well, the Supernal is a realm of symbols and forms, and the Exarchs are just some especially unpleasant symbols...

everyone needs to believe in something

[Enokh]

Alright, look, about this "Everything in Mage should be about the Supernal because everything comes from the Supernal" bit.

Let's assume the Big Bang is how our universe started (mostly because I don't want to get into that argument). That means everything, ultimately, came from the Big Bang. But someone getting a Masters in Psychology wouldn't exactly say that their degree will be about the Big Bang.

The same argument can more or less be made with extremely high-level math.