[Open Dev]Signs of Sorcery-Introduction and Advanced Mage Sight

[Solar]

I think you are conflating 'supernatural stuff that isn't the result of Supernal shennanigans' and 'supernatural stuff that is outside the Supernal frame of reference'.
When the blog talks about "vast majority of mysteries aren't Supernal" it's talking about the former, not the latter. A Vampire may not be a supernal mystery, but it is still something that is covered by the Supernal and can be analyzed by the tools supernal magic offers Mages.
AFAIK the only phenomenom in the entire CofD that fits the latter definition is Promethean's divine fire, and nothing about 2e Mage will change how unique that is.
I am pretty sure that when the blog post talks about most mysteries not being supernal in origin it doesn't refer to stuff that is "not manipulate-able and understandable through the Supernal".

You are probably right! There's definitely an issue with a lot of these things when it comes to what me mean by all these terms. I don't think anything aside from the Abyss should be outside the Supernal, just because it's neat to have such a cool cosmological system and I don't think it's really worth shoving that around (not that I am concerned Mage 2e will do this!) though of course to each their own at their own table.

I think the crossover subject is an interesting one, though. Like, I find Mage to be so compelling that when I'm running Mage, Vampires are not Vampires from Requiem but rather probably something more closely related to the subject of Mage, for example (not necessarily Mages, or created by Mages, but something which I feel sync's more with the Mage setting). And in Werewolf when I run it, there might be mortal sorcerers but they aren't Mages. I do think Mage is rather crossover unfriendly and to me the easiest solution is: Mage doesn't take place in the universe of Requiem and Forsaken.

[WHW]

Then look at It like this - vampires are not a supernal mystery, because their condition does not origin in manipulating the supernal. They are as non supernal as humans, dogs and ghosts are.

[Omegaphallic]

The only thing that slightly puts me off about the open dev is the line that the vast majority of mysteries aren't Supernal. I don't like to crossover Mage with other game lines because, quite frankly, I find Mage to be vastly more interesting that other game lines (I can play Werewolf and enjoy it a lot, but in my Mage, Werewolves are Mages with solid Life Arcanum ratings). Is it going to be a very abnormal campaign, perhaps not playing as intended, if I run Mage without bringing in stuff from Vampire, Werewolf etc? The Spirit World and the gauntlet, sure, ghosties and that, sure, but I'd prefer not to have to bring stuff from Requiem or whatever into the mix.

I think he was refering to the stuff in the Chronicles of Darkness corebook, like ghosts, spirits, horrors, angels, the Godmachine, not setting specific stuff, though that can be used as an option if you choose. But between the Mage 2e Corebook, Chronicles of Darkness Corebook, the Left Hand blog update, and Signs of Sorcery you should have more then enough mysteries to explore, without dipping into other game lines.

[Solar]

Then look at It like this - vampires are not a supernal mystery, because their condition does not origin in manipulating the supernal. They are as non supernal as humans, dogs and ghosts are.

That makes a degree of sense to me! Though I presume that like humans, dogs and ghosts there are Supernal symbols representing vampires (or aspects of vampires, more likely) "up there."

[MorkaisChosen]

I believe that's exactly the point of saying they're as non-Supernal as humans, dogs and ghosts. It's certainly what I'd mean if I said that, as well as how I interpret Mage.

[Omegaphallic]

I think Mages would occasionally investiage things from other game lines, but any mage getting too nosy or invovled in the business of the Fae, Vampires/Strix, Sin-Eaters, Werewolves, Prommies/Divine Fire, Demons, is likely to not survive it for long. Mages are powerful, but these are the groups most likely to collective push back against instrusions hard.

So I'm betting Consiliums likely have limits on how much mages can intrude into the turf of other major gamelines, least war break out.

Going to a local open Goblin Market should be okay, stalking and studying the members of Brass Court on the other hand, risks war, and would like be discouraged especially by the Guardians of the Veil and the Seers of the Throne.

[branford]

I think Mages would occasionally investiage things from other game lines, but any mage getting too nosy or invovled in the business of the Fae, Vampires/Strix, Sin-Eaters, Werewolves, Prommies/Divine Fire, Demons, is likely to not survive it for long. Mages are powerful, but these are the groups most likely to collective push back against instrusions hard.

So I'm betting Consiliums likely have limits on how much mages can intrude into the turf of other major gamelines, least war break out.

Going to a local open Goblin Market should be okay, stalking and studying the members of Brass Court on the other hand, risks war, and would like be discouraged especially by the Guardians of the Veil and the Seers of the Throne.

Exploring Mysteries need not always be entirely secret, subversive or life-and-death dangerous.

There are no inherent hostilities between splats in the default setting. Many mages could easily try to befriend individual members of other splats or simply trade and barter with them for information or access. Mages, both individually and as a group, have a great deal of power and resources, and amicably engaging with them offers vast potential advantages.

Cultivating a mage ally, friend or contact would likely be considered a significant boon among many in the supernatural world (and few would want one as a determined adversary).

[Joker]

So I'm betting Consiliums likely have limits on how much mages can intrude into the turf of other major gamelines, least war break out.

While it isn't unlikely, I doubt any official statement will ever support this. Mostly the CofD seems to adhere closer to a stance similar to Solar's, where even if Vampires exist in your Mage campaign it doesn't assume that they are necessarily the ones from Requiem with all their social baggage.

Sticking their nose where it doesn't belong is also a core part of being a Mage and probably one of their main causes of death. Noting really special in the eyes of a mage, just a normal risk of what they are. I doubt any laws that dissuade prying into other groups are more than local ones unique specific Consiliums. And even then, once a Mage gets an Obsession a Consilium will have to use far more force to control them than most will consider worth the effort.

[Isator Levi]

Is it going to be a very abnormal campaign, perhaps not playing as intended, if I run Mage without bringing in stuff from Vampire, Werewolf etc?

I would phrase it more as being an abnormal campaign if one runs Mage without bringing in stuff from the Chronicles of Darkness corebook. It doesn't necessarily need to be the actual Mothman, Man in White, that person who found the old man collecting a whole bunch of stories about oddities and personally encountered some kind of cannibal monster, but Mage: the Awakening still takes place in that world, and their explanations are unlikely to be things of specific relevance to the Mage cosmology. It's the world where there's so much inexplicable weirdness going on that there's something noteworthy about how people refuse to notice any of it, before any other game line is even introduced.

[Solar]

Eh I think the whole "literally everyone has interacted with the supernatural they just have convinced themselves otherwise" thing is a bit of a questionable conceit but it's literally the easiest thing in the world to pretend isn't there. Weird shit? Fine. Good, even! Weird shit all the time everywhere? Eh, I don't think we need that at all. So long as the God-Machine isn't assumed to be a thing, though, I am mostly fine with Mage drawing on the blue book stuff by default (and the stuff I don't like about the core are more statements about the WoD as a whole rather than actual things that are going to change campaigns)

[Dave Brookshaw]

So. I have been scratching my head trying to figure out where this misinterpretation came from.

True Facts:

The Supernal World underlies everything in the Fallen World, not just the material realm; an Obrimos can use her Sight to look at the Aether whether she's in New York, a six-river-deep Dominion in the Underworld, a Wound in the Hisil, lost in the Hedge, or in the Sidereal Wastes of the Astral. The Supernal is always there.

The two worlds - symbols and phenomena - are in a descriptive relationship. The Supernal symbolizes everything in the Fallen, and through that gives everything meaning. Stare into the heart of the most Alien Idigam with Spirit Sight, and you'll see the Primal Wild symbols that describe the monster.

What "not of Supernal Origin" means is that the majority of things mages investigate using the Arcana is not caused by the Supernal World directly leaking and manifesting into the Fallen. As far as beginning apprentices are taught in Cosmology 101, only spells and summoned supernal entities are of Supernal origin. Everything else weird in the Fallen World, from Men in Black, to lost places, zombies, mothman, the critters from the CofD corebook, broken timelines, etc, can be analyzed with Mage Sight but is not made of the Supernal symbols a mage sees floating around it when he Scrutinizes it.

The common misconception that mages mistake other supernatural race's shit for the Supernal is impossible. Mages know damn well the Hedge is not Supernal Arcadia, because Acanthus can use their Mage Sight in the Hedge and see the difference - while, conversely, those Acanthus are very aware when they're in a real Arcadian Emanation Realm that their Supernal World is manifesting physically around them. This does sometimes lead to strangenesses like seeing Primal Wild Beasts in the background when Scrutinizing one of the Begotten, but eh.

Most Mysteries are not of Supernal Origin, but mages are cool with that, and can use their Arcana to investigate anything. (The Divine Fire? Looks really pretty under Prime, Mind, or Fate Sight. That doesn't tell the mage anything about where it came from, any more than being able to detect vampires with Death means the Curse came from Stygia. Which, btw, it didn't.)

Signs of Sorcery, as the blog says, is about the Mysteries that are, and how that both gives mages a leg up understanding them and unnerves them.

[Solar]

I guess that tracks pretty well with my understanding, using that definition.

The only thing that I would say is that the examples often given are things like "a Mage can look at a Vampire..." etc and I was wondering to what extent Mage assumes the supernatural creatures of the other lines are out there, present in the world? From what has been suggested by other posters, no assumption is really talked about so if you didn't know about those other lines, you'd not just assume that oh yeah there are definitely an organisation of these specific CofD Vampires as showcased in this book over here running around doing stuff, which I think is good. If that is the case, of course.

[Omegaphallic]

Bringing things back to signs of sorcery, thechapter I'd most like to see spoilers from is Chapter Five: The Manifest Supernal.

Supernal Entities, Eidioforms, Eminations Realms and Verges, all interesting topics. Also its says there will be merits for possessing the things in this book, so I'm curious if Mages will have a merit fir claiming say an Emination Realm or a Living Imbued Creature, or a Supernal Entity.

[branford]

Eh I think the whole "literally everyone has interacted with the supernatural they just have convinced themselves otherwise" thing is a bit of a questionable conceit but it's literally the easiest thing in the world to pretend isn't there. Weird shit? Fine. Good, even! Weird shit all the time everywhere? Eh, I don't think we need that at all. So long as the God-Machine isn't assumed to be a thing, though, I am mostly fine with Mage drawing on the blue book stuff by default (and the stuff I don't like about the core are more statements about the WoD as a whole rather than actual things that are going to change campaigns)

While you certainly can adjust your chronicle to suit your tastes, the supernatural is far more pervasive in the overall default CofD setting that you suggest or might prefer.

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...ave#post760510

DaveB Sat 07 Nov 2015 05:28:14
People in the nWoD tend toward "ignore it and it'll go away" for *most* supernatural events, and outright "lose their memory of it altogether" for Supernal manifestations.

It's not a mistake, it's that mage magic gives you amnesia *on top* of everyone's generally-conditioned tendency to be in denial.

A mage-centric reader might suppose that the latter is a weak form of Quiescence that covers everything supernatural but not Supernal. I prefer to think of it as human nature.

DaveB Sat 07 Nov 2015 05:54:28
>the nWOD default setting position is that most people generally know "something" supernatural is out there and is bad, but they keep their mouths shut, heads down, and just hope they don't someday end up lunch for a creature of the night?

Yes

>Do most mortals in the nWOD actually experience or have contact with some supernatural event or creature during their lives

Also yes. The nWoD is a very, very weird place.

[branford]

The common misconception that mages mistake other supernatural race's shit for the Supernal is impossible. Mages know damn well the Hedge is not Supernal Arcadia, because Acanthus can use their Mage Sight in the Hedge and see the difference - while, conversely, those Acanthus are very aware when they're in a real Arcadian Emanation Realm that their Supernal World is manifesting physically around them. This does sometimes lead to strangenesses like seeing Primal Wild Beasts in the background when Scrutinizing one of the Begotten, but eh.

Supernal Worlds physically manifesting Emanation Realms around mages?

What? How?