[Open Dev]Signs of Sorcery-Introduction and Advanced Mage Sight

[Solar]

...

Yeah I know what the conceit is and where it's been laid out I just am not a fan of it. But this doesn't get in the way of me being pretty pumped for Mage 2e because I don't have to bring it up.

As I've said, repeatedly.

[Juhn]

It's just a metaphysical explanation for why witnessing the supernatural causes Integrity breaks in the GMC update (and the CofD core) as per this quote:

The character witnesses something traumatic, terrifying, or that rattles his understanding of the world.

, and why this quote is in character creation post-GMC-update:

What has your character forgotten?

. Standard blue-book mortals games have always assumed you're playing an average person, so ostensibly if that question's in there, the average person has seen, otherwise encountered, or at least something weird at some point in their life. Heck, according to my copy of CofD the very next sentence is "In the Chronicles of Darkness, it’s next to impossible to grow up without any exposure to the supernatural", so I guess they did come out and make that setting conceit up-front and explicit eventually.

That being said, explaining away why people are traumatized and would rather forget about the supernatural with "it's a metaphysical curse on their souls" is possibly something that didn't need explaining in the first place, and wouldn't be difficult to change for your own games. It's not like there aren't a load of things in the CofD that don't get clear and concrete explanations for why they happen. I don't think going back to leaving it unexplained the way it was in 1e would be too hard.

The way the Sleeper template interacts with Integrity already causes some issues porting characters over from 1e, vis-a-vis how Willpower scores interacted with Disbelief and Quiescence. There's a semi-prominent NPC who was a Willpower 10 Sleeper in the Mage game I play in who is now necessarily going to have to be a Sleepwalker-who-doesn't-know-he's-a-Sleepwalker for his concept to make sense under 2e, unless we decide to change things, so those are decisions a lot of us are going to be dealing with.

[Kumiko]

Willpower 10 sleeper? You can't actually be serious. The best you should assume without being either a Hunter or mover and shaker would be Willpower 8. And that is pushing it right to the edge of believability. It's your game though not mine. And not an issue I ever run into.

It's not even a regular thing for Hunters or Mages to have willpower 10 without serious experience or legitimate reason. Like being Obrimos and not fresh off awakening for example. Given it's kind of their whole deal to be extraordinarily strong willed.

[Mrmdubois]

It's just a stat, take it easy.

[Solar]

Yeah Willpower 10 people exist

They're rare, obviously, but still.

[Jacob]

I wouldn't worry too much about what an "average" person looks like stat-wise. Once you do you have to start accepting weird things like, "the average plumber has 2.4 children." Not sure what 2.4 children look like. (And this is, of course, the kind of language problem that philosophers quibble about for years on end.)

[Leetsepeak]

No, "Average" people are actually pretty easy to make. 2 in every Attribute, 2 in relevant skills, size 5, you're done.

[Charlaquin]

I wouldn't worry too much about what an "average" person looks like stat-wise. Once you do you have to start accepting weird things like, "the average plumber has 2.4 children." Not sure what 2.4 children look like. (And this is, of course, the kind of language problem that philosophers quibble about for years on end.)

It's really not that weird if you understand what the word "average" means in the context of statistics. The problem is, lots of people take "average" to mean "typical" or "most common". But that's not what statisticians mean when they say average. They mean that if you take all the kids of all the plumbers in the world and re-distribute them so that every plumber ends up with the same number of kids, each plumber will have to get two kids and two fifths of a third kid. Nobody actually has 2.4 kids, the number of plumber's kids just doesn't divide evenly between the number of plumbers.

[Jacob]

Yes, but Philosophers pay their bills be taking things literally. (Think about the textual entailments and not the assumptions.) IMO, the discussions of the supernal world, etc., it seems to me that Mages are more philosopher than statistician. YMMV.

The relevant point is that there's really no such thing as an "average" person. Most people won't have 10 Willpower but some few will. So it's not outside the realm of possibility. More to the point though, if the plot needs it, go with it and don't fret.

[Jacob]

No, "Average" people are actually pretty easy to make. 2 in every Attribute, 2 in relevant skills, size 5, you're done.

Or you could just assume they have a dice pool of 6 for important things and 3 for unimportant things. And a chance die for things they suck at. (And thereby avoid stats altogether.)

[Juhn]

Willpower 10 sleeper? You can't actually be serious. The best you should assume without being either a Hunter or mover and shaker would be Willpower 8. And that is pushing it right to the edge of believability. It's your game though not mine. And not an issue I ever run into.

He is a Hunter, technically, but not one with supernatural powers, so I didn't mention it (as that still makes him a Sleeper). He belongs to Null Mysteriis. I believe he has Willpower 10 (I'm not the ST and don't have direct access to his stats), although by the chart in 1e Mage core he could have 8 or 9 and would still be immune to Disbelief. The fact that he remembers supernatural events differently from everyone around him is why he became a Hunter in the first place, if I'm remembering right (which is why the Sleeper template breaks his backstory and concept). He is notable for being incredibly strong-willed, which is necessarily true when your Resolve and Composure are both at least 4.

[Kumiko]

He is a Hunter, technically, but not one with supernatural powers, so I didn't mention it (as that still makes him a Sleeper). He belongs to Null Mysteriis. I believe he has Willpower 10 (I'm not the ST and don't have direct access to his stats), although by the chart in 1e Mage core he could have 8 or 9 and would still be immune to Disbelief. The fact that he remembers supernatural events differently from everyone around him is why he became a Hunter in the first place, if I'm remembering right (which is why the Sleeper template breaks his backstory and concept). He is notable for being incredibly strong-willed, which is necessarily true when your Resolve and Composure are both at least 4.

As I said a Hunter with willpower 10 is perfectly believable and in genre in my opinion. And yes he would be a sleeper. Luckily the sleeperwalker merit is a cheap, easy and totally logical solution to the issue given he's dealing with the supernatural practically on a daily basis. It makes no sense not to have that merit at some point.

[Leetsepeak]

Or you could just assume they have a dice pool of 6 for important things and 3 for unimportant things. And a chance die for things they suck at. (And thereby avoid stats altogether.)

Oh, totally, those numbers are just there for systems that interact with them, (like if you have an ability that lowers attribute scores.) IIRC, this is why the antagonists in CofD, despite having simplified dice pools like is suggested, also gave attribute scores that are a part of those dice pools.

[Menace]

A question about mage sight and emanation realms:
What if in a emanation realm you use mage sight attuned to a realm different than the emanation ? For instance a Moros using mage sight in a Arcadian emanation realm.

[Omegaphallic]

A question about mage sight and emanation realms:
What if in a emanation realm you use mage sight attuned to a realm different than the emanation ? For instance a Moros using mage sight in a Arcadian emanation realm.

Good question.