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Warlocks of Arcadia, 2e-style

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  • Dataweaver
    replied
    Originally posted by Kumiko View Post
    No, not hardwired. I can accept that they could be very good with it just like an Obrimos with Death but it has to be through their preferred lens.
    In Warlocks of Arcadia, the Shame is part of the preferred lens. Saying that the Inferior Arcanum must always be Forces if the mage's Realm is Arcadia is hard-wiring things — which is fine for the regular Paths, but misses the point of Warlocks of Arcadia.

    Originally posted by Kumiko View Post
    Ancathus with Forces? Seriously nasty but never precise like a typical Obrimos. Obrimos with Death? May God help you if they're at 4-5 dots. The very definition of a seriously nasty Necromancer. See why the limits yet?
    Not really, no. An Acanthus with Forces really isn't any more dangerous than, say, a Mastigos or Thyrsus with Forces. Having Forces be Inferior isn't there because of game balance reasons — that is, the Acanthus as written don't have Forces limited because Forces are especially nasty when combined with Fate or Time. They have it as the Inferior Arcanum for conceptual reasons only — reasons which apply to the regular Paths but not necessarily to the Warlocks of Arcadia Paths.

    Originally posted by Kumiko View Post
    The concepts you propose without serious hard limits that can't be spelled out means big trouble and easy opportunity for me as a player to wreck your game with no consequences. Trust me given I'm not not a powergamer but I am not stupid and don't buy into crippling my character for some story or extra beats.
    In this setup, choosing a Shame isn't optional; every mage has one.

    Originally posted by Kumiko View Post
    I like the spirit of your idea but think it's deeply flawed and creates more problems for an issue that never needed a solution in the first place.
    This isn't a “Mage is broken; let's fix it” thread.

    Originally posted by Kumiko View Post
    You do know any Mage can master any common arcanum with a teacher after having 4 dots on their own?
    I sure do; but I don't see the relevance.

    Originally posted by Kumiko View Post
    So sad they need help to do so with a single arcanum. Here's an idea..talk with your ST and find a way acceptable to both of you you to join a published legacy or your own or one that the ST already made and deemed legal in her game...nah, that's less work and makes sense right?
    That's got nothing to do with what I'm talking about. This isn't about doing away with the Inferior Arcanum; it's about letting the player choose his Inferior Arcanum, but doing so in a way that the choice is a meaningful one that encourages him to think about it in terms of fleshing out his character and enriching the story, not in terms of powergaming his character by choosing a weakness that he'll steer clear of.

    And please ditch the sarcasm and ridicule. I don't like being threadcrapped on.

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  • Kumiko
    replied
    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
    In the normal setup, I think that's something of a chicken-and-egg debate: do Warlocks have trust issues because they see how duplicitous people are, or did they Awaken as Warlocks because of their desire to see through peoples' deceit? I could see arguments for either or both. In this setup, the answer is a bit clearer: you're a Warlock because the part of your soul that resonates most with Mind is the part that reached out for Supernal Truth.
    Convienent. Totally untrue but very convenient. A man must know his limitations. Just like game designer's, game hacker types and MtAw 2e Mages.

    I like the spirit of your idea but think it's deeply flawed and creates more problems for an issue that never needed a solution in the first place.

    You do know any Mage can master any common arcanum with a teacher after having 4 dots on their own?

    So sad they need help to do so with a single arcanum. Here's an idea..talk with your ST and find a way acceptable to both of you to join a published legacy or your own or one that the ST already made and deemed legal in her game...nah, that's less work and makes sense right?
    Last edited by Kumiko; 04-15-2016, 02:25 AM.

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  • Dataweaver
    replied
    Originally posted by Strill View Post
    I always thought that the personality correlations were based on the implications of having that Path's ruling arcana available all the time. Mastigoi see how duplicitous people are, and don't trust anyone. Acanthus are walking around with a bunch of safety nets, and can seem reckless even if they aren't.
    In the normal setup, I think that's something of a chicken-and-egg debate: do Warlocks have trust issues because they see how duplicitous people are, or did they Awaken as Warlocks because of their desire to see through peoples' deceit? I could see arguments for either or both. In this setup, the answer is a bit clearer: you're a Warlock because the part of your soul that resonates most with Mind is the part that reached out for Supernal Truth.

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  • Kumiko
    replied
    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
    This isn't Circle of Degrees; I'm not aiming for 360 Paths that blur together, differentiated only by their Arcanum biases. Rather, you have five Watchtowers with associated Realms (which are not tightly coupled to the mage's personality), five Soul aspects (which are roughly akin to personality types), and four Shames (which are not unlike Demon's Catalysts, Werewolf's Aspects from Signs of the Moon, or Promethean 2e's Roles) that further refine the nature of the terminus (i.e., Watchtower or Soul) with which they're associated.

    And frankly, if you think that Forces should be hard-wired as Arcadia's one and only Inferior Arcanum for all who have Awakened to its Watchtower, then you're not getting into the spirit of “Warlords of Arcadia”. One of Arcadia's Shames should indeed result in Forces being Inferior, and that one should look very similar to the standard Acanthus Path's explanation for why the Acanthus have trouble with Forces — though as I said above, I'm hoping to make the Arcadian Shame of Forces (whatever it ends up getting called) more than just that. But the idea here is that the player should have choices as to the mage's Shame.
    No, not hardwired. I can accept that they could be very good with it just like an Obrimos with Death but it has to be through their preferred lens.

    Ancathus with Forces? Seriously nasty but never precise like a typical Obrimos. Obrimos with Death? May God help you if they're at 4-5 dots. The very definition of a seriously nasty Necromancer. See why the limits yet?

    The concepts you propose without serious hard limits that can't be spelled out means big trouble and easy opportunity for me as a player to wreck your game with no consequences. Trust me given I'm not not a powergamer but I am not stupid and don't buy into crippling my character for some story or extra beats.
    Last edited by Kumiko; 04-15-2016, 02:01 AM.

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  • Dataweaver
    replied
    I'm also thinking that the Shames ought to be a bit like the Approaches in Changeling 2e. The Abyss stands between the Supernal and the Fallen (in this case, between the Watchtower and the Soul) and prevents Awakenings. In order to achieve an Awakening, either the Watchtower or the Soul needs to strike a compromise with the Abyss in order to let the Path through; that's what the Shame is.

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  • Strill
    replied
    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Rather, you have five Watchtowers with associated Realms (which are not tightly coupled to the mage's personality)
    I always thought that the personality correlations were based on the implications of having that Path's ruling arcana available all the time. Mastigoi see how duplicitous people are, and don't trust anyone. Acanthus are walking around with a bunch of safety nets, and can seem reckless even if they aren't.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dataweaver
    replied
    This isn't Circle of Degrees; I'm not aiming for 360 Paths that blur together, differentiated only by their Arcanum biases. Rather, you have five Watchtowers with associated Realms (which are not tightly coupled to the mage's personality), five Soul aspects (which are roughly akin to personality types), and four Shames (which are not unlike Demon's Catalysts, Werewolf's Aspects from Signs of the Moon, or Promethean 2e's Roles) that further refine the nature of the terminus (i.e., Watchtower or Soul) with which they're associated.

    And frankly, if you think that Forces should be hard-wired as Arcadia's one and only Inferior Arcanum for all who have Awakened to its Watchtower, then you're not getting into the spirit of “Warlords of Arcadia”. One of Arcadia's Shames should indeed result in Forces being Inferior, and that one should look very similar to the standard Acanthus Path's explanation for why the Acanthus have trouble with Forces — though as I said above, I'm hoping to make the Arcadian Shame of Forces (whatever it ends up getting called) more than just that. But the idea here is that the player should have choices as to the mage's Shame.
    Last edited by Dataweaver; 04-15-2016, 01:40 AM.

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  • Kumiko
    replied
    I have a question. ...is this all an end around to eliminate the fact that Acanthus can't do Forces unless they take a legacy or the fact even if they are good at Forces (which is dead simple for them in 2e until the third dot) especially given it's just isn't that hard to raise any arcanum or gnosis because of the flat cost vs. the exponential in 1e and OWoD or that they don't use it directly like it should be used? Regardless of your hack they should still view everything through Arcadia and never control, dominate, order said arcanum like an Obrimos would. They'd still go with the flow or I among most people I know aren't buying it.

    See the fact is there are very few actual personality types in real life. Usually things like this boil down to 4-5 distinct choices not 360. Ask anyone in customer service or law enforcement doing anything involving detective work or profiling.
    Last edited by Kumiko; 04-15-2016, 12:37 AM.

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  • Dataweaver
    replied
    Good starts. I see you're tackling this from the angle of “Why would someone on this Path* have truble with Arcanum X?” I'm a little worried that that may leave the focus too much on Arcanum X (in these cases, Forces); but let's see how things play out.

    The next step would be to define the Shame's unique Breaking Point. Though this is phrased as a negative, remember that Breaking Points give you opportunities to earn Beats, either directly (through Botches) or indirectly (through resolving the Conditions that come with a Breaking Point). Think in terms of what sorts of plot complications the Shame is likely to bring about, and how they might make the story more interesting.



    * where “Path” stands for choice of Watchtower or Soul aspect, depending on the Arcanum in question.

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  • Azunth
    replied
    A Pandemonic Shame of Forces

    Forces exist in a strange place to these guests of the Demons. Half the time, they seem to exist too briefly for them to gain sympathy, and exist somewhere besides that false space where distance is a matter of numbers. What is the sympathy of fire? A lightning bolt? A gust of wind? The other half of the time, forces doesn't seem to exist as a discrete arcanum. The air is warm, a cat in motion, but here the forces seem wound tight among the other arcanum, being a part of something else, not something it it's own right. Either Wound inseparably into the world, or flashing by so quick as to barely touch it, Forces, quite literally, seems to have no place. Unable to wrap their head around force as energy that flows and not a thing with sympathies and stillness, Forces is the shame of these mages.

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  • Azunth
    replied
    I have an Arcadian Shame for forces. I'll post more as I think of them.


    *Indirect (Needs a better name): Inferior Forces. Also called "The Subtle shame", mages of this shame find even casting forces magic to be counter-intuitive and bizarre, like an epic tale being interrupted by a sudden hurricane, howling wind drowning out the words of the wise old man, killing the monster with a lightning stroke before he's introduced, and sidelining the destined hero while an army storms the villain's castle. Forces seems ham-fisted, out of place, even inappropriate. It's too...well, forceful, for the subtle, indirect conception of these mages have of magic. One Witch of Arcadia described it thus.

    "Imagine doing magic is being at a fancy party, with tuxedos and everything. Now imagine there's a guy whose pissed you off, and you want to get back at him. Time magic? That's polite insults, the right tone of voice, that sort of thing. Fate magic would be spreading nasty rumors about the guy. Life magic is flirting with him, and being so sexy he can't think straight, and then embarassing him.

    Forces Magic? That's flipping the table over, socking the guy in the face, then fistfighting him."
    Last edited by Azunth; 04-14-2016, 11:14 PM.

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