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  • Originally posted by Falcon777 View Post

    Which, if you wish to acknowledge all of that you immediately add the +2 reach option that says: This spell now allows the subject to bypass solid barriers that would block its path so long as the area factor would not need to be increased.

    Break boundary should allow you to go through walls. Maybe just my opinion, but I will not change it.
    I can respect that, a storyteller is able to interpret things in whatever way is convenient to them. My first point still stands though: there still isn't a Space spell that creates something so banal and useful as a hole in a wall. =P

    (Baring further commentary, I'm aware that other spells fulfill similar purposes, or can even be construed in such a way that it looks like there is a hole in the wall, such as co-location.)

    Comment


    • Originally posted by RobinCoyote View Post

      I can respect that, a storyteller is able to interpret things in whatever way is convenient to them. My first point still stands though: there still isn't a Space spell that creates something so banal and useful as a hole in a wall. =P

      (Baring further commentary, I'm aware that other spells fulfill similar purposes, or can even be construed in such a way that it looks like there is a hole in the wall, such as co-location.)
      I believe Matter can accomplish it with Shaping, as well as other things like wall elevators, levitating rocks, etc. I think the draw of this spell is giving a Mastigos a way to deal with a solid,opaque obstacle which does not leave evidence behind.
      Last edited by KaiserAfini; 07-06-2019, 01:40 PM.


      New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.


      The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists

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      • Occlude Mantra (Prime ••)
        Practice: Veiling
        Primary Factor: Duration
        Withstand: N/A
        Suggested Rote Skills: Academics, Expression, Occult

        Mages are a paranoid lot, so it is considered proper decorum to cast using mantras at Consilium events. When negotiating on the field with a volatile willworker, it is a necessity. This allows the mage to mask their High Speech for the duration, allowing it to register as the blueprints for any other spell they could cast (such as making Sleep of the Just sound like Words of Truth). If anyone suspects the deception and attempts to pierce it, it causes a Clash of Wills.
        Last edited by KaiserAfini; 07-07-2019, 01:00 AM.


        New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.


        The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists

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        • Edit: The new version of the first Rote can be found here. Grayed out this one to preserve the post yet reinforce that this one is incorrect in its execution.

          Combustion (Matter •••)
          Practice: Weaving
          Primary Factor: Potency Suggested
          Rote Skills: Academics, Crafts, Science

          This spell gathers and temporarily suppresses the molecular bonds of the hydrogen and oxygen within the water vapor in the air before rapidly compressing them down to a point. This causes an adiabatic reaction, heating the hydrogen above its autoignition temperature and setting it alight. The resulting fire and decompressing air creates a fiery explosion that deals bashing damage equal to the Potency of this spell. This spell works best in areas of high humidity.

          +1 Reach: The explosion releases black, sooty smoke causing the Blinded Tilt.
          +1 Reach: The explosion has significant force behind it causing the Knocked Down or Stunned Tilt.


          - - -

          Even before I knew Mage existed, this was always my reasoning for how my characters made fiery explosions. Do you know what the best part of this is? When you ignite something it basically takes it and bonds it to oxygen atoms. In this case, you're igniting the hydrogen and the output of that is literally water vapor. Even if the rules of spellcasting made everything Lasting by default, you'd be able to do this same spell over and over again.

          And then, of course, the four dot lethal version.

          - - -

          Explosion (Matter ••••)
          Practice: Patterning
          Primary Factor: Potency
          Suggested Rote Skills: Academics, Crafts, Science

          This spell gathers the air and directly converts it to hydrogen before rapidly compressing it down to a point. This causes an adiabatic reaction, heating the hydrogen above its autoignition temperature and setting it alight. The resulting fire and decompressing air creates a blazing explosion that deals lethal damage equal to the Potency of this spell. This spell significantly increases the humidity within the area
          determined by the Scale of the spell for the duration of the spell and may potentially start fires on flammable surfaces.

          +1 Reach: The spell deals aggravated damage. Cost: 1 Mana.
          +1 Reach: The spell increases the heat and humidity within the area dramatically, creating the Extreme Heat Environmental Tilt.
          +1 Reach: The explosion releases black, sooty smoke causing the Blinded Tilt.
          +1 Reach: The explosion has significant force behind it causing the Knocked Down or Stunned Tilt.
          Last edited by RobinCoyote; 07-12-2019, 10:19 AM.

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          • I think people get too caught up in real world "fallen" science, and it doesn't really map that well to in-game Supernal Truth. Matter affects the physical property of Things, and yes, air and water vapor are Things, but once you get down to molecular bonds, you are really tangling with electromagnetic forces, the purview of... well, Forces.

            I think you can use Matter in more indirect ways, like changing the temperature at which a Thing ignites. Isn't that the same thing? Maybe, from a scientific point of view, but it's different from a Mage's point of view.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by EW-Matias View Post
              I think people get too caught up in real world "fallen" science, and it doesn't really map that well to in-game Supernal Truth. Matter affects the physical property of Things, and yes, air and water vapor are Things, but once you get down to molecular bonds, you are really tangling with electromagnetic forces, the purview of... well, Forces.

              I think you can use Matter in more indirect ways, like changing the temperature at which a Thing ignites. Isn't that the same thing? Maybe, from a scientific point of view, but it's different from a Mage's point of view.
              You could argue that yes, but then you're also able to change water to ice or vapor with the same Weaving practice. Whether water is a liquid, solid, or gas depends on how much energy the particles have. The more they move and bounce off each other, the less "solid" the state of water is. That is also encroaching on the realm of Forces if we analyze it that way.

              In this case, I could make the argument that I'm suppressing the attributes of the molecules that allow them to bond via electrons in the first place, temporarily separating the water into its base components. I'm sure I could come up a few other ways to frame it by just messing with the individual matter molecules, but I think you get the idea.

              I understand that symbolism is a big thing in Mage, but the existence of the Free Council to me ensures that sleeper science has a place within magic symbolism. I tend to lean in that direction myself because its what I enjoy.
              Last edited by RobinCoyote; 07-11-2019, 04:41 PM.

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              • The existence of the Free Council allows you to us Science as a rote skill, and scientific parafernalia as yantras. But science, as we understand it, is a Lie. If it were true, Magic would be impossible. The fact you can change the state of water or the properties of air with Magic, means that The Truth of their nature and the laws that rule them is very different.

                As I say, igniting the air with Matter seems possible to me, but you change the way you look at it and possibly the consequences. Magically introducing or eliminating a form of Energy is what Forces does. Matter just makes things glitch out and act in ways they wouldn't normally act and that can create weird consequences.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by EW-Matias View Post
                  The existence of the Free Council allows you to us Science as a rote skill, and scientific parafernalia as yantras. But science, as we understand it, is a Lie. If it were true, Magic would be impossible
                  Using magic to operate within the bounds of the Lie isn't sacrilege here. Mages still need to exist within the Lie. They're ruled by it. One can still realize that reality is a Lie and play along with it. It's just another way to use magic as far as I'm concerned.

                  Originally posted by EW-Matias View Post
                  As I say, igniting the air with Matter seems possible to me, but you change the way you look at it and possibly the consequences. Magically introducing or eliminating a form of Energy is what Forces does. Matter just makes things glitch out and act in ways they wouldn't normally act and that can create weird consequences.
                  Honestly, I consider the electrons to be as much an attribute of the matter as the molecules are. Plus "alter conductivity" is within the bounds of Matter, so altering the molecules in such a way that it temporarily releases their electron bond should be within the bounds of Matter as well.

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                  • FWIW I agree with RobinCoyote that if Matter can alter conductivity it must have the ability to manipulate electron association with a particular nucleus.


                    Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

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                    • Well, not must but certainly lends credence to the possibility.

                      My problem with both spells is that they compress the air, aka cause movement and/or pressure, both concepts that fall more naturally under Forces. Now you could change the density of a material using Matter to achieve similar effects, but that's a separate effect from these spells and would likely require an immense amount of Potency to reach the same results.

                      There also seems to be an inherent stability/stasis factor to Matter, as evidenced by Transubstantiation being unable to change an object into a volatile material.


                      Bloodline: The Stygians
                      Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                      Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                      • Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                        Well, not must but certainly lends credence to the possibility.
                        Considering how conductivity has everything to do with what energy states electrons are in and how "bound" they are to a specific nucleus, it is a must.


                        Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

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                        • Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                          My problem with both spells is that they compress the air, aka cause movement and/or pressure, both concepts that fall more naturally under Forces.
                          I feel like there's already precedence from Windstrike and Piercing. It seems like any gross arcana can at the very least induce motion within their purview.

                          Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                          There also seems to be an inherent stability/stasis factor to Matter, as evidenced by Transubstantiation being unable to change an object into a volatile material.
                          You got me there. It's a lot of weight to put on the word 'inert' in one spell though. I feel like people throw that word around regarding matter without realizing its definition. Not to mention that means that matter has trouble somehow influencing a good chunk of the periodic table which I find hard to believe.

                          But look at me, flip-flopping between my support of precedence. x3

                          I mostly was basing the second spell off the definition of Weaving, which is, "Patterning spells allow a mage to completely transform a target into something else that falls under the Arcanum’s purview." But who really knows, I guess?

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                          • A similar topic came up when there was a discussion about using Matter to turn steel into liquid. Some had the assumption that it would necessarily be molten. We got the clarification that nope, it would just be liquid. I’m inclined to think Matter is unlikely to cause an explosion or burn things just because you effect the bonds between the subject’s constituent parts or alter its conductivity, etc.

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                            • I find it bizarre that its easier to transmute something as invisible and untouchable as time into a tangible inanimate object than it is to make matter explode.

                              Comment


                              • You can make Matter explode easily enough, you just can’t cause it to have energetic reactions through Matter alone. For instance you could Transubstantiate something into inert potassium, but it won’t be long before it reacts with the atmosphere. That’s more physics and chemistry taking over than the results of your magic though.

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