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  • Originally posted by RobinCoyote View Post
    I find it bizarre that its easier to transmute something as invisible and untouchable as time into a tangible inanimate object than it is to make matter explode
    There is a very specific assumption you're making in this sentence that relies on a very literalistic reading of the Practice of Patterning.


    Resident Lore-Hound
    Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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    • Crab-Brain (Life •••• + Mind ••••)

      Practice: Patterning
      Primary Spell Factor: Duration
      Withstand: Resolve
      Cost: None or One Mana
      Suggested Rote Skills: Animal Ken, Crafts, Empathy

      I don't really know why you'd cast this spell, but here we are. The mage who decides to do this sort of thing transforms one of the subject's thought-patterns into a living organism. This can turn a Mental Condition into an animal; the subject no longer suffers from the Condition's effects. This can also transform a memory, dream, or passing thought. To affect a Persistent Condition or fundamental part of the subject's personality requires a point of Mana. This spell can be cast with an animal symbolic of the affected thought in mind, but this is not necessary; depression can be transformed into a giraffe, and reality won't really care. When the spell's Duration ends, the animal disappears and the Condition remanifests; if the animal is killed in the meantime, the Condition is permanently removed, but the subject gains no Beat for the excisement.

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      • Originally posted by espritdecalmar View Post
        Crab-Brain (Life •••• + Mind ••••)

        Practice: Patterning
        Primary Spell Factor: Duration
        Withstand: Resolve
        Cost: None or One Mana
        Suggested Rote Skills: Animal Ken, Crafts, Empathy

        I don't really know why you'd cast this spell, but here we are. The mage who decides to do this sort of thing transforms one of the subject's thought-patterns into a living organism. This can turn a Mental Condition into an animal; the subject no longer suffers from the Condition's effects. This can also transform a memory, dream, or passing thought. To affect a Persistent Condition or fundamental part of the subject's personality requires a point of Mana. This spell can be cast with an animal symbolic of the affected thought in mind, but this is not necessary; depression can be transformed into a giraffe, and reality won't really care. When the spell's Duration ends, the animal disappears and the Condition remanifests; if the animal is killed in the meantime, the Condition is permanently removed, but the subject gains no Beat for the excisement.
        I have watched this anime, pretty sure everyone involved got Beats.


        Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

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        • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
          There is a very specific assumption you're making in this sentence that relies on a very literalistic reading of the Practice of Patterning.
          That's vague.

          I'm willing to admit though that based on what I've gleaned from you guys, the first spell doesn't work. The hydrogen and oxygen atoms would retain the qualities of water vapor because the spell would not produce a Lasting effect. The particles are still water, I've just separated it into parts; it would snap back together on spell end. But I'm not one to give up because something didn't work the first time, so here we are. Same spell. Same mechanics. Different flavor text.

          - - -

          Combustion (Matter •••)
          Practice: Weaving
          PrimaryFactor: Potency Suggested
          Rote Skills: Academics, Crafts, Science

          This spell gathers the air in an area and increases its flammability before rapidly compressing it down to a point. This causes an adiabatic reaction, heating the air above its autoignition temperature and setting it alight. The resulting fire and decompressing air creates a fiery explosion that deals bashing damage equal to the Potency of this spell.

          +1 Reach: The explosion releases black, sooty smoke causing the Blinded Tilt.
          +1 Reach: The explosion has significant force behind it causing the Knocked Down or Stunned Tilt.

          - - -

          The second Rote from the previous post still works as written. Even if transforming one periodic element into another doesn't give it the same attributes as the matter you've transformed it into, it falls within the purview of the practices of three dots or higher to simply alter the attributes of something that falls under the purview of the Arcanum. So I could technically convert all air into hydrogen and also give it the attributes of hydrogen, specifically flammability.

          @
          Mrmdubois pointed out that liquid steel wouldn't be motlen as an example earlier—the reason for that, from what I can figure, is that matter can only alter attributes but would not be able to instill or remove heat as that falls under Forces. So you'd have liquid steel but it wouldn't need to be hot to be such, nor could you render it such without Forces.

          (It should be noted that no
          Arcana is directly applying the heat for ignition within these Rotes. The Rotes instead "game" the laws of thermodynamics to produce it.)

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          • Originally posted by RobinCoyote View Post
            That's vague.
            I assumed you were bright enough to put two and two together and also that you didn't come up with the notion of changing Time into Matter (in this system where "having four dots in two Arcana is required to completely change something in the purview of one into something in the purview of another" is part of the spellcasting quick-reference list) completely on your own.

            The system very obviously can't be as unconditionally open-ended as "anything listed in the purviews of an Arcanum can have anything covered by the Practices of a given dot rating done to or with it, even if it breaks the setting or doesn't make sense." The game doesn't provide any real workable precedent for converting discrete units of time into discrete physical substances apart from maybe in the abstract outcome of a powerful combined spell, nor does it offer much of any guidance to suggest that spells to manipulate time do so in a way analogous to how the three gross Arcana covering directly palpable phenomena work; the closest it gets is the fact that Time spells occupy phenomenal reality just like other spells do.

            Of course it's bizarre for it to be easier to transmute time into an inanimate object than to make matter explode. That's a bizarre state of affairs, not least because it describes the opposite of how the game works.


            Resident Lore-Hound
            Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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            • Originally posted by espritdecalmar View Post
              Crab-Brain (Life •••• + Mind ••••)

              Practice: Patterning
              Primary Spell Factor: Duration
              Withstand: Resolve
              Cost: None or One Mana
              Suggested Rote Skills: Animal Ken, Crafts, Empathy

              I don't really know why you'd cast this spell, but here we are. The mage who decides to do this sort of thing transforms one of the subject's thought-patterns into a living organism. This can turn a Mental Condition into an animal; the subject no longer suffers from the Condition's effects. This can also transform a memory, dream, or passing thought. To affect a Persistent Condition or fundamental part of the subject's personality requires a point of Mana. This spell can be cast with an animal symbolic of the affected thought in mind, but this is not necessary; depression can be transformed into a giraffe, and reality won't really care. When the spell's Duration ends, the animal disappears and the Condition remanifests; if the animal is killed in the meantime, the Condition is permanently removed, but the subject gains no Beat for the excisement.
              While i appreciate the reference this is pretty much a variant of Goetic Summons with additional Life component to make stuff have a body.

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              • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                I assumed you were bright enough to put two and two together
                Opening with condescension and a thinly-veiled insult. Bless your heart, dear.

                I came into this thread to share something I thought was a cool, nifty idea for a Matter combat Rote. I am a new player/storyteller and still lack some understanding, but I was open to criticism, politely defended my reasoning, and even backed off and admitted I was wrong when I realized that the rules and precedence were arrayed against me. The comment you responded to was admittedly one I made of frustration because I was tunnel-visioned with making my Rote work a specific way and needed to derail and rethink.

                Your comment
                • provided no new or relevant information.
                • did not add anything to the conversation.
                • was slightly condescending.
                So I decided that your comment warranted and was worth a two-word, noncommittal response. "That's vague."

                However, I do thank you for your second post despite the initial hostility, it was helpful in its own unique way to my understanding of the system.

                Originally posted by espritdecalmar View Post
                Crab-Brain (Life •••• + Mind ••••)
                I don't really know why you'd cast this spell, but here we are. The mage who decides to do this sort of thing transforms one of the subject's thought-patterns into a living organism.
                I picture a bored Mastigos using this to toy with his apprentice and amuse himself ala the Dodgeball method of training. "If you can catch your libido, you can counter a spell!" While their apprentice wildly chases their psyche-made-manifest pleading it not to get run over and to come back.
                Last edited by RobinCoyote; 07-12-2019, 09:14 AM.

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                • Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post

                  I have watched this anime, pretty sure everyone involved got Beats.
                  Wait, what anime? Based on Menace's response this is apparently accidentally a reference to something?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by RobinCoyote View Post

                    That's vague.

                    I'm willing to admit though that based on what I've gleaned from you guys, the first spell doesn't work. The hydrogen and oxygen atoms would retain the qualities of water vapor because the spell would not produce a Lasting effect. The particles are still water, I've just separated it into parts; it would snap back together on spell end. But I'm not one to give up because something didn't work the first time, so here we are. Same spell. Same mechanics. Different flavor text.

                    - - -

                    Combustion (Matter •••)
                    Practice: Weaving
                    PrimaryFactor: Potency Suggested
                    Rote Skills: Academics, Crafts, Science

                    This spell gathers the air in an area and increases its flammability before rapidly compressing it down to a point. This causes an adiabatic reaction, heating the air above its autoignition temperature and setting it alight. The resulting fire and decompressing air creates a fiery explosion that deals bashing damage equal to the Potency of this spell.

                    +1 Reach: The explosion releases black, sooty smoke causing the Blinded Tilt.
                    +1 Reach: The explosion has significant force behind it causing the Knocked Down or Stunned Tilt.

                    - - -

                    The second Rote from the previous post still works as written. Even if transforming one periodic element into another doesn't give it the same attributes as the matter you've transformed it into, it falls within the purview of the practices of three dots or higher to simply alter the attributes of something that falls under the purview of the Arcanum. So I could technically convert all air into hydrogen and also give it the attributes of hydrogen, specifically flammability.

                    @
                    Mrmdubois pointed out that liquid steel wouldn't be motlen as an example earlier—the reason for that, from what I can figure, is that matter can only alter attributes but would not be able to instill or remove heat as that falls under Forces. So you'd have liquid steel but it wouldn't need to be hot to be such, nor could you render it such without Forces.

                    (It should be noted that no
                    Arcana is directly applying the heat for ignition within these Rotes. The Rotes instead "game" the laws of thermodynamics to produce it.)
                    There's a less tortured way to go about this which is to create an area of air that reacts to the air around it like a highly reactive substance.

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                    • Originally posted by espritdecalmar View Post

                      Wait, what anime? Based on Menace's response this is apparently accidentally a reference to something?
                      Bakemonogatari, the first arc

                      is about a girl whose emotional (and, consequently, physical) "weight" has been turned into a giant crab; the main character of the series helps her.



                      Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

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                      • Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post

                        Bakemonogatari, the first arc

                        is about a girl whose emotional (and, consequently, physical) "weight" has been turned into a giant crab; the main character of the series helps her.
                        Oh, interesting. I honestly had no idea. I was just a little tipsy and thinking about how cool crabs are.

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                        • Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post

                          Considering how conductivity has everything to do with what energy states electrons are in and how "bound" they are to a specific nucleus, it is a must.
                          Again, that`s real world science, not in-game Supernal Truth. The way I see it, for a Matter spell conductivity doesn't really have anything to do with electrons. It's just a property of an object, and it can be changed like any other. To Matter, electrons and molecules don't really matter (pun not intended), Forces can deal with all that. Matter is about Tings, and the properties they have.

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                          • Originally posted by EW-Matias View Post
                            Again, that`s real world science, not in-game Supernal Truth. The way I see it, for a Matter spell conductivity doesn't really have anything to do with electrons. It's just a property of an object, and it can be changed like any other. To Matter, electrons and molecules don't really matter (pun not intended), Forces can deal with all that. Matter is about Tings, and the properties they have.
                            But the properties have Fallen world preconditions.

                            Fluidity can exist at room temperature, even if a particular object isn't a liquid at room temp without magic the concept still exists.

                            Conductivity is solely a description of electron mobility, that's what conductivity is and thus that's what altering conductivity means. The electrons have to matter.


                            Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post
                              But the properties have Fallen world preconditions.

                              Fluidity can exist at room temperature, even if a particular object isn't a liquid at room temp without magic the concept still exists.

                              Conductivity is solely a description of electron mobility, that's what conductivity is and thus that's what altering conductivity means. The electrons have to matter.
                              When altering conductivity you apply one symbol that alters a material property of the subject. Now when examined through the perspective of Fallen science it will be what you say, a change in the force binding electrons to a nucleus (I think it might be more complicated than that, though, but whatever), but that doesn't mean Matter can change that force however it wants. Conductivity is symbolically a material property (despite fundamentally being dependent on a force) and Matter can change material properties. Matter can't change these forces however you want, only as a result of changing something that symbolically falls under Matter. If you want to change these forces directly, you go to Forces.

                              That is the nature Supernal magic. Don't fall into the trap of thinking it needs to adhere to Fallen science in any way whatsoever. It's the result (and how it symbolically resonates with the Arcana and Practices) that matter. Anything else is just fudged by the magic to make it work regardless of how it breaks the laws of our reality, and it can be as inconsistent as is necessary for the results.


                              Bloodline: The Stygians
                              Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                              Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                              • That property of not affecting forces open up all kinds of interesting problemsolving opportunities to a Matter mage. Use State Change on hot water to make boiling ice, or apply it on a rock to create room temperature magma. If you use it to vaporize liquid nitrogen you can create an instant Extreme Cold environmental tilt.

                                The Explosion spell looks good to go, provided a spark is independently supplied to trigger the materials. But since we are talking about Free Council style science shenanigans, I would like to suggest another approach that only requires two dots: dust explosions.

                                Dust explosions are created by a high saturation of explosive solids (dust, sand, sugar, flour) in the air being set ablaze, provided air humidity is low. So lets leverage the practice of Ruling for this one. It drives out humidity and concentrates enough oxigen in the target area for a spark to cause [Potency] points of lethal damage. This means you still need to prime the explosion somehow, but it can lead to something akin to Roy Mustang's fire alchemy in FMA. It also means it causes temporary asphyxiation on anyone inside the area due to the oxygen being stolen for the effect, making this even more deadly in closed spaces.

                                For every Size point of combustible powder inside the target area (or on the person for individual targeting), the explosion gains one more point of damage. By instead casting it with Matter 3, using a Reach and a mana, the damage becomes aggravated as you temporarily create "perfected dust". At the lowest end of the spectrum you play as Roy Mustang, with proper preparations you wield the power of a thermobaric weapon.

                                Is this too much for a two dot spell ? Surprisingly, it isn't. With the proper preparations, a master of Matter can lift an entire campus several feet into the air, then drop it, causing horrible damage as he safely floats away in a comfy flying sofa. That approach is overt and causes a lot of damage near the drop site.

                                Dust explosions are very well documented, seeing ample use in the movie industry. So technically they are the safer, less overt, more predictable and probably the preferred method to deal with a large scale threat without causing tremendous damage to the Veil, even if it carries the additional complication of setting up a method to prime the explosion. Mages with proper time to prepare can be terrifying indeed.
                                Last edited by KaiserAfini; 07-13-2019, 02:57 PM.


                                New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.


                                The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists

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