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  • I need to pin down one or more Death versions of dispel. Here are two options I'm considering:


    End Spell (Death •••)
    Practice: Weaving (causes something that would end eventually to instead end immediately)
    Purview: Endings
    Primary Factor: Potency
    Withstand: Highest Arcanum rating of the subject spell’s caster used in casting the subject spell
    Cost: 1 point of Mana

    Immediately ends the subject spell. If the spell’s original caster is still alive and has not relinquished the spell, she knows that one of her spells ended. Caveats:
    • The caster must perceive the subject spell using Mage Sight in order to target it. This is a subtle distinction between End Spell and Prime 1 Dispel magic. Dispel Magic requires the caster to know the relevant Arcanum; the caster of End Spell could merely be gifted the necessary Mage Sight via magic. Perceiving any "facet" of a multi-Arcanum spell is sufficient for targeting it; causing it to end does not require any further understanding of it.
    • Cannot end spells of Indefinite Duration, as they do not naturally end (this included Enhanced Items enhanced with Indefinite Duration spells, the spells infused into Imbued Items, and artifacts).
    • Cannot end the spell of an archmaster.
    Destroy Spell (Death •••••)
    Practice: Making
    Purview: Endings
    Primary Factor: Potency
    Withstand: Highest Arcanum rating of the subject spell’s caster used in casting the subject spell
    Cost: 1 point of Mana

    Identical to End Spell, but can end spells of Indefinite Duration. May also remove spells infused into an Imbued Item, rendering the item ordinary. No effect on artifacts.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by galivet View Post
      I need to pin down one or more Death versions of dispel. Here are two options I'm considering:


      End Spell (Death •••)
      Practice: Weaving (causes something that would end eventually to instead end immediately)
      Purview: Endings
      Primary Factor: Potency
      Withstand: Highest Arcanum rating of the subject spell’s caster used in casting the subject spell
      Cost: 1 point of Mana

      Immediately ends the subject spell. If the spell’s original caster is still alive and has not relinquished the spell, she knows that one of her spells ended. Caveats:
      • The caster must perceive the subject spell using Mage Sight in order to target it. This is a subtle distinction between End Spell and Prime 1 Dispel magic. Dispel Magic requires the caster to know the relevant Arcanum; the caster of End Spell could merely be gifted the necessary Mage Sight via magic. Perceiving any "facet" of a multi-Arcanum spell is sufficient for targeting it; causing it to end does not require any further understanding of it.
      • Cannot end spells of Indefinite Duration, as they do not naturally end (this included Enhanced Items enhanced with Indefinite Duration spells, the spells infused into Imbued Items, and artifacts).
      • Cannot end the spell of an archmaster.
      Destroy Spell (Death •••••)
      Practice: Making
      Purview: Endings
      Primary Factor: Potency
      Withstand: Highest Arcanum rating of the subject spell’s caster used in casting the subject spell
      Cost: 1 point of Mana

      Identical to End Spell, but can end spells of Indefinite Duration. May also remove spells infused into an Imbued Item, rendering the item ordinary. No effect on artifacts.

      If I recall correctly, nothing can end the spell of an archmaster unless its another being on the same tier list or mages who go out of their way to find Artifacts or loopholes to do so (like bargaining with the Aeons). Otherwise its like a battery powered toy soldier with a swiss army knife arm trying to go against a Godzilla sized mech with plasma cannons, the Traveler's Awakened Will would get batted aside by the Seeker's post human one with casual ease.

      I think maybe the 3 dots one could be a Fraying spell to reduce the primary factor by Potency, costing no mana. Reducing advanced duration would require a Reach and indefinite duration needing another one and a mana. With another Reach it could choose a factor to target. The 5 dots one would end it regardless, but I think the mana cost might not be required. That way its more or less balanced in cost against the Prime alternatives. I imagine there are 3 main ways to go about dispeling: age the effect away with Time, shatter it with Death's entropy or untangle the Imago with Prime. Prime sounds like the optimal solution against Awakened powers, Death has it a little harder and Time is more of jury rigged solution (making the long lasting attack spell elapse quickly could end very badly), so I tried to suggest an approach that reflected that.
      Last edited by KaiserAfini; 11-15-2020, 11:33 PM.


      New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

      The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists
      The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate

      Comment


      • Yeah, as I noted, neither spell I posted is effective against archmasters' spells.

        Thanks for the alternative suggestions! I started out trying to work with Death's purview over Endings to end spells. I see Endings as is a binary, narrative concept: something ends, or it doesn't. "Ending" is not equatable to "pausing," "shortening," or "weakening," although those may covered by other distinct purviews of Death such as Decay or Enervation. I believe there may be some viable options like you describe that operate by reducing the spell factors and reach options of a previously-cast spell, but I have a vague tickle in my memory where someone advised me that was a bad idea for some reason related to game mechanics. I wish I could find that old conversation...

        I used the Mana cost because both Prime options require Mana to make ending a spell a Lasting effect, but it's not clear that it's necessary according to the Creative Thaumaturgy guidelines in this case (especially for the 3-dot version). Conceptually (according to my understanding), Prime dispelation is about skillfully unraveling an imago, whereas Death would be the brute force attack of "I see thing, I hit thing with symbol of Endings to make thing dead." In the spirit of 2e, I don't care so much about balance among the Arcana as I care about following the guidelines of the purviews and practices.

        Comment


        • Spell Rot (Death •••)
          Practice: Perfecting
          Purview: Decay
          Primary Factor: Potency
          Withstand: Highest Arcanum rating of the subject spell’s caster used in casting the subject spell

          Reduces the Primary Spell Factor of the subject spell by a number of steps equal to Potency (after accounting for Withstand, of course). No archmaster spells. No effect on Imbued Items. The caster must perceive the subject spell in Active Mage Sight. Ineffective against Duration for Indefinite Duration spells, but see the last Reach option below.

          Stating the obvious, it's useless against spells with only one turn of Duration.

          Casting Spell Rot on another instance of Spell Rot instantly destroys the caster, her cabal, and the Storyteller.

          +1 Reach: Spell Rot may degrade the caster's choice of secondary spell factor rather than the primary. Ineffective against the Duration of Indefinite Duration spells, but see below.
          +1 Reach: Spell Rot also strips the Advanced quality from the spell factor it degrades (if applicable, otherwise no effect). Ineffective against Duration in the case of Indefinite Duration, unless
          +1 Reach and 1 Mana: Reduces an Indefinite Duration spell to Advanced Duration One Year if Spell Rot degrades Duration. The subject spell is still considered to have 5 steps on the Duration chart (the -10 dice penalty row).

          After writing this up I feel like I'd rather say that it just doesn't work against Indefinite Duration at all, if I allow this spell. I also suspect this spell introduces some further mechanical awkwardness that I'm forgetting.

          Comment


          • I was going through my Google Docs, and found a file I made about a year ago with a bunch of spell ideas I'd dashed off. Since Galivet mentioned a lack of Time magic in this thread, I'll post the relevant pieces from that Arcanum.

            Banish the Sun (Time ••)
            Practice: Veiling
            Primary Spell Factor: Potency
            Withstand: Temporal Sympathy

            Sometimes a mage needs to hide her activities after the fact. With this spell, the Awakened cloaks an event or time in the subject’s past. Witnesses will recall the effects of a hidden subject’s actions, but not their cause. For instance, if the subject picked up a vase in a room and left with it, witnesses will remember that the vase was there one moment, then gone the next.

            Always Already (Time ••)
            Practice:
            Veiling
            Primary Spell Factor: Duration

            The mage grants the subject the illusion of stability and permanence. Anyone who perceives the subject will believe that it has always existed in its current state, and will always exist that way. Magic that shows the subject’s future or past shows the subject as it is in the present, regardless of context or circumstances.

            Cascade Veil (Time ••)
            Practice:
            Veiling
            Primary Spell Factor: Duration

            The mage twists past and future around a subject, hiding it from the present. The subject can move through the world unperceived, although magic that shows the future or past will reveal its presence before or after the fact. In addition, if it occurs to them at a later time, witnesses can attempt to recall the subject with a roll of Intelligence + Composure, penalized by Potency.

            Comment


            • I have a hard time wrapping my head around manipulating Temporal Sympathy. Agreed, the book explicitly mentions that manipulating the sympathy something has with its own past can affect people's memories. I wish the book had detailed its impact more generally. With Banish the Sun, suppose that during the Veiled time the subject used the vase to crack someone over the head. If the victim's mind doesn't remember being cracked over the head with the vase, why would his body "remember" that event in the form of an injury? Why would the vase "remember" being moved so as to exist in its new location at the end of the spell?

              I'm also murky on the difference between Veiling Time and Unmaking Time. Is Veiling tantamount to Unmaking a bit of Time for the subject for the Duration of the spell?

              It seems weirdly anthropocentric if the impact of manipulating Temporal Sympathy is limited only to human memory, emotion, and perception. But I don't think we have any clues about other consequences of such spells?

              With Cascade Veil, it seems like if you're hidden enough using Time that people can't perceive you, then you really ought not to be able to instigate the cause of any effects at all for the duration of the spell. Instead, it seems like using Time Magic to Veil the subject from all means of perception for a period of time. Okay, but... how though? What does Time have to do with it? My gut tells me Time shouldn't work that way, but I'm open to persuasion. Again, I don't understand why Time Veiling would solely impact human perceptions and memory rather than all cause/effect relationships. Cherry-picking these anthropocentric impacts out of the broader landscape of causality makes them seem like Mind spells.
              Last edited by galivet; 11-20-2020, 03:35 PM.

              Comment


              • So I wrote these over a year ago, so my memories of my intentions at the time of conception are a bit hazy. However, here's my thoughts on the subject:

                I agree that there's a degree of anthropocentrism to Banish the Sun and Cascade Veil. On some level I wrote these spells to answer the question "What does invisibility through Time look like?" It might be best to think of them as hiding from entities that can perceive the passing of time, so, in your attacking-with-the-vase example, the action (and its consequences) still took place, but from the perspective of the present looking into the past, the cause is missing from the consequence. I suppose I should have added in a rider about postcognition magic as well.

                I agree that there could feasibly be a stronger (and stranger) Unmaking version of Cascade Veil, where the subject doesn't exist in the present at all for the spell's Duration. I'd frame it as, whenever a scene ends, the Storyteller asks the affected player what they did in the scene, then apply those actions to the next, or the like. You might be onto something when it comes to manipulating objects (etc) for the Duration of Cascade Veil (or maybe something odd happens instead, with characters perceiving the effects before and/or after they actually happen, similar to the trope of invisible characters being detected by ripples in water).

                Time magic can be difficult to hash out because the basics of the Arcanum are grounded in a shared lie for the sake of narration and sanity (that there's an objective present). In addition, as the book puts it, "magic defies causality," which can be seen in how spells such as Rewrite History work. A caveat to any of the above spells is that they're going to be immediately noticeable to Time Sight.

                (I do find Temporal Sympathy a little frustrating, one because the line between Unchanged and Strong isn't always clear, and two because the Attainment kind of feels like a tax on the Time Arcanum rather than a cool new ability.)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by espritdecalmar View Post
                  (I do find Temporal Sympathy a little frustrating, one because the line between Unchanged and Strong isn't always clear
                  Yeah that's basically a mess.

                  Unchanged is initially described as "has not changed" and "a person who has not spoken to anyone or been anywhere."

                  Then later in Temporal Summoning it states "Without the Temporal Sympathy Attainment, only Unchanged pasts may be brought to the present, but this is still sufficient to remove most Conditions and heal injuries." Okay, the new injury or Condition didn't change the person? Getting stabbed is less significant than speaking to someone?

                  The apologia I've seen is that changes require at least the current Scene to end before they "settle in" and impact Temporal Sympathy, but I don't know where that's coming from aside from a desire to force this apparent contradiction to somehow make sense.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by espritdecalmar View Post
                    So I wrote these over a year ago, so my memories of my intentions at the time of conception are a bit hazy. However, here's my thoughts on the subject:

                    I agree that there's a degree of anthropocentrism to Banish the Sun and Cascade Veil. On some level I wrote these spells to answer the question "What does invisibility through Time look like?" It might be best to think of them as hiding from entities that can perceive the passing of time, so, in your attacking-with-the-vase example, the action (and its consequences) still took place, but from the perspective of the present looking into the past, the cause is missing from the consequence. I suppose I should have added in a rider about postcognition magic as well.

                    I agree that there could feasibly be a stronger (and stranger) Unmaking version of Cascade Veil, where the subject doesn't exist in the present at all for the spell's Duration. I'd frame it as, whenever a scene ends, the Storyteller asks the affected player what they did in the scene, then apply those actions to the next, or the like. You might be onto something when it comes to manipulating objects (etc) for the Duration of Cascade Veil (or maybe something odd happens instead, with characters perceiving the effects before and/or after they actually happen, similar to the trope of invisible characters being detected by ripples in water).

                    Time magic can be difficult to hash out because the basics of the Arcanum are grounded in a shared lie for the sake of narration and sanity (that there's an objective present). In addition, as the book puts it, "magic defies causality," which can be seen in how spells such as Rewrite History work. A caveat to any of the above spells is that they're going to be immediately noticeable to Time Sight.

                    (I do find Temporal Sympathy a little frustrating, one because the line between Unchanged and Strong isn't always clear, and two because the Attainment kind of feels like a tax on the Time Arcanum rather than a cool new ability.)

                    They seem valid to me. Increasing the temporal sympathy of a subject to an object makes them think about it. In much the same way that the strings of Fate in the Lunargent narrative see the same connections the warlocks glimpse in sympathetic space, it seems appropriate that the Arcana of Choice and Consequences have an overlap with the ones of thought and emotion, for what is choice but thought and emotion being forged into intent and action ? Mind and Space mages will be able to do a lot more with them, but Fate and Time share some claim to these domains.

                    Veiling the present could make you leave an afterimage while your present actions go unnoticed, you could trap a person in a false time freeze, make them think the present is only and eternal state of a subject. Cloaking the past partially can make people forget the cause of events, experience a Rashomon effect, grant Anonimity or Alternate Identities. Unmaking can redefine these events rather than just mask them.

                    I think these fall within the Arcana's purview and provide a more diverse toolkit that just the highly specific (but nevertheless highly useful) ability to falsify or defend against temporal scrutiny that the core book focuses on.
                    Last edited by KaiserAfini; 11-20-2020, 08:14 PM.


                    New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                    The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists
                    The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate

                    Comment


                    • Cultivate Lotus of the Palace (Life •••••, Prime •••••)
                      Practice: Making
                      Primary Factor: Duration
                      Withstand: N/A
                      Cost: 1 mana
                      Suggested Rote Skills: Expression, Medicine, Science

                      A spell that creates a flower of singular beauty that only grows in Hallows and ley lines, feeding on the energy, concentrating it and shining with an inner light perceivable only by Mage Sight. They are resilient like olive trees, reproduce quickly like fungus, grow expediently like rats and are eadible tass. Potency can be allocated on a one to one basis to increase the number each spawn per day or the amount of mana each is worth. It takes a day after they are planted before they store enough energy to act as tass, attaining their full capacity (they are treated as zero mana tass once created).

                      It is also highly nutritious, each providing the nourishment of a full meal. Their flavor is so exquisite and the consumption gives such a feeling of wellness that it grants the Addicted condition to any who partake, even when no other physically debilitating effect happen.

                      With conjunctional Mind 5, it also produces a powerful toxin that grants blissful dreams, freed from maladies such as Nightmares or Insomnia. However, the caster can specify up to [Potency] types of memories that are wiped out, once per flower consumed, the next time the eater sleeps (the toxin's severity is equal to Potency).

                      This rote was first invented by the Geryon Ministry, who cultivated entire gardens of "the lotuses from the Nemesis' palace" to trap Sleepers and Awakened alike in cages of content ignorance. This lotus eater cattle would be all too happy to be harvested by vampires or experimented upon by the Pylons.

                      Even those who were rescued tended to seek out the Seers once more, betraying anyone or sacrificing anything to experience its wonders once more.

                      Thus did the Arrow and Guardians seal this rote in the Censorea, despite it containing no magical taint. But a few abandoned Sanctums of the fallen Ministry may hold a Grimmoire containing it or the journal note of past Seers may recall it. Maybe the tides of Pancryptia are waiting for just the right time, to part before a devotee of the Nemesis with something to prove. Some whisper one already unearthed it, with the Seer quietly setting up a bakery and using lotus paste to create its famous moon cakes.
                      Last edited by KaiserAfini; 11-24-2020, 11:01 PM.


                      New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                      The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists
                      The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate

                      Comment


                      • Black Lotus, is that you?

                        Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
                        Cultivate Lotus of the Palace (Life •••••, Prime •••••)
                        Practice: Making
                        Primary Factor: Duration
                        Withstand: N/A
                        Suggested Rote Skills: Expression, Medicine, Science
                        So, right off, I feel like this spell should probably have a Mana cost associated with it. I also think the Withstand should be equal to "5 minus the Hallow Rating," getting these to grow on a node without a Hallow feels like it should be more difficult than getting them to grow on a 5-dot Hallow, and as the strength of the Hallow waxed and waned the number and potency of the lotuses would change.

                        A spell that creates a flower of singular beauty that only grows in Hallows and ley lines, feeding on the energy, concentrating it and shining with an inner light perceivable only by Mage Sight. They are resilient like olive trees, reproduce quickly like fungus, grow expediently like rats and are eadible tass. Potency can be allocated on a one to one basis to increase the number each spawn per day or the amount of mana each is worth.
                        Ley lines or specifically Nodes (ley line conjunctions)? If the former, that's not much of a restriction.

                        It is also highly nutritious, each providing the nourishment of a full meal. Their flavor is so exquisite and the consumption gives such a feeling of wellness that it grants the Addicted condition to any who partake, even when no other physically debilitating effect happen.

                        With conjunctional Mind 5, it also produces a powerful toxin that grants blissful dreams, freed from maladies such as Nightmares or Insomnia. However, the caster can specify up to [Potency] types of memories that are wiped out, once per flower consumed, the next time the eater sleeps (the toxin's severity is equal to Potency).
                        Why Mind 5? The toxin is a Life effect (assuming there's a biological pathway for its production), there's no need for Mind and all; and there are plenty of biological neurotoxins that fuck with memory.


                        Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post
                          https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3"]Black Lotus[/URL], is that you?



                          So, right off, I feel like this spell should probably have a Mana cost associated with it. I also think the Withstand should be equal to "5 minus the Hallow Rating," getting these to grow on a node without a Hallow feels like it should be more difficult than getting them to grow on a 5-dot Hallow, and as the strength of the Hallow waxed and waned the number and potency of the lotuses would change.



                          Ley lines or specifically Nodes (ley line conjunctions)? If the former, that's not much of a restriction.



                          Why Mind 5? The toxin is a Life effect (assuming there's a biological pathway for its production), there's no need for Mind and all; and there are plenty of biological neurotoxins that fuck with memory.
                          I didn't think about the MtG reference at the time, cool. The idea is a reference to the original lotus eaters from Greek mythology and the lotus eater machine trope.

                          I knew I was forgetting something, the mana cost is needed. I should also probably say that they need a day to reach full capacity, they are not meant to be an unlimited mana loop.

                          They are able to feed off ley energy and the spare from a Hallow. A Withstand rating wasn't added because they can simply be planted there.

                          By making them exist alongside ley lines, it feeds the illusion:"They mark the path of the Supernal and grant us ample mana, surely they must be a blessing upon the Fallen World"

                          Mind was added so they know what memories to target. Potency denotes the priority list, even when only one vanishes each time. The first Key most Seers would specify is "what you want to forget". This is bait for those who want to "drown their sorrows".

                          So the Guardian who has lost the ability to sleep properly can forget burning those apprentices in celestial fire to save the city from the Acamoth. They asked to make the sacrifice, but those eyes still haunt her. They understood what had to be done, but were afraid.

                          Now she can forget, now she can have some peace and feel something positive again. She doesn't feel high, it keeps her healthy and she finally gets to recover her sleep. Other come there too, seeking to feel reinvigorated by the best dreams.

                          Other mages say its wrong, but there is no high, no permanent damage to the body or mind, just a few precious moments of peace. Is it truly wrong ruining such a beacon of hope ?

                          In time they forget what the Seers are, what their responsibilities are, their personal goals and ambitions.

                          "Soon a new island of locust eaters will emerge, soon the city will be run by those who make the choices that you forgot you had. Soon these gardeners of humanity will line the table of the Throne with their harvest. Geryon shall be reborn by my hand"
                          Last edited by KaiserAfini; 11-24-2020, 11:04 PM.


                          New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                          The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists
                          The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate

                          Comment


                          • Temporal Tether (Time ••••)
                            Practice: Patterning
                            Primary Factor: Duration

                            The purpose of this spell is to pursue someone who seeks to escape using Time magic or similar supernatural effects. It functions according to the ancient Atlantean principle of "monkey see, monkey do."

                            For the Duration of the spell, the caster remains synchronized in time with the spell's subject -- the caster likewise experiences any time travel, dilation, or contraction effects experienced by the spell's subject. When Temporal Tether's Duration expires, all such effects the caster experienced due to Temporal Tether end immediately.

                            +1 Reach: The caster may link a second subject rather than herself to the first subject. If unwilling, the spell's second subject may Withstand using...Stamina, I guess?
                            Last edited by galivet; 11-25-2020, 12:04 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by galivet View Post
                              Temporal Tether (Time ••••)
                              Practice: Patterning
                              Primary Factor: Duration

                              The purpose of this spell is to pursue someone who seeks to escape using Time magic or similar supernatural effects. It functions according to the ancient Atlantean principle of "monkey see, monkey do."

                              For the Duration of the spell, the caster remains synchronized in time with the spell's subject -- the caster likewise experiences any time travel, dilation, or contraction effects experienced by the spell's subject. When Temporal Tether's Duration expires, all such effects the caster experienced due to Temporal Tether end immediately.

                              +1 Reach: The caster may link a second subject rather than herself to the first subject. If unwilling, the spell's second subject may Withstand using...Stamina, I guess?
                              Other effects that bind two people together and default to the caster simply require an additional Scale: Target factor, not a Reach, to bind a person other than the caster. Something to consider.


                              Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by galivet View Post
                                Temporal Tether (Time ••••)
                                Practice: Patterning
                                Primary Factor: Duration

                                The purpose of this spell is to pursue someone who seeks to escape using Time magic or similar supernatural effects. It functions according to the ancient Atlantean principle of "monkey see, monkey do."

                                For the Duration of the spell, the caster remains synchronized in time with the spell's subject -- the caster likewise experiences any time travel, dilation, or contraction effects experienced by the spell's subject. When Temporal Tether's Duration expires, all such effects the caster experienced due to Temporal Tether end immediately.

                                +1 Reach: The caster may link a second subject rather than herself to the first subject. If unwilling, the spell's second subject may Withstand using...Stamina, I guess?
                                I think this is a Weaving rather than Patterning, because you are tying and synchronizing personal times. Its like a temporal version of Shared Fate.


                                New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                                The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists
                                The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate

                                Comment

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