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  • Originally posted by Cauthon View Post

    So my actual intent with this spell is to let you regenerate from Tilts that you'd normally be crippled by. Regeneration is a temporary spell for... reasons that I assume are balance and/or moral-quandry based. So I thought to circumvent that by having a spell allow you to "heal like a werewolf", and regrow what you lose while the spell is active. It won't work on anything you'd already lost, and if it doesn't finish regrowing before the spell ends you're stuck with it, but in between you're much harder to maim

    So the actual /speed/ of your healing is secondary to the spell. Stacking the Body Mastery you described would actually be a good SOP for any Arrow using it.
    Actually, it’s because of symbolism reasons. When you think of a person, you generally assume they are a fully functional and “normal” (whatever that means). That’s the symbol of a person. A one armed person is a different symbol of person. When you use Regeneration, you are transforming from one symbol to another, but it’s no more their “true form” than transforming into a dog. At least, that what I understand to be happening.


    To whomever reads this, I hope you have a good day/night. May you be Happy.

    So, I made some Mage Legacies here, with some help. They vary in quality, but I hope you take a look at them. Every one contains pieces of me, for better or worse.

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    • Originally posted by TempleBuilder View Post
      Actually, it’s because of symbolism reasons. When you think of a person, you generally assume they are a fully functional and “normal” (whatever that means). That’s the symbol of a person. A one armed person is a different symbol of person. When you use Regeneration, you are transforming from one symbol to another, but it’s no more their “true form” than transforming into a dog. At least, that what I understand to be happening.
      Oh, that's absolutely how it's justified in-setting. But it's also the only healing-type spell I can think of off-hand that isn't Lasting. I think I remember reading somewhere it was a deliberate choice to encourage moral quandries for healer characters, but I may be mis-remembering

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      • Originally posted by Cauthon View Post

        Oh, that's absolutely how it's justified in-setting. But it's also the only healing-type spell I can think of off-hand that isn't Lasting. I think I remember reading somewhere it was a deliberate choice to encourage moral quandries for healer characters, but I may be mis-remembering
        or so you can have the Wounded Old Master trope and have it be believable.


        To whomever reads this, I hope you have a good day/night. May you be Happy.

        So, I made some Mage Legacies here, with some help. They vary in quality, but I hope you take a look at them. Every one contains pieces of me, for better or worse.

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        • Originally posted by TempleBuilder View Post
          Oh, I’d thought someone would have commented by now. Ok, disclaimer: I actually don’t know much about werewolves. I have the core 2e book, but I just haven’t explored it much, so if something I say is wrong, ignore me.
          The gist of it is that until Potency 4, the spell translates to "You heal one point of bashing damage per turn, one point of lethal damage per fifteen minutes, one point of aggravated damage every four days, and heal Tilts inflicted by aggravated damage when they heal the associated damage (instead of being permanent)." Those last two don't scale with Potency at all, because they don't scale with Primal Urge at all; for the first two effects, every other level of Potency above 2 adds one to the number of boxes of that type of damage you're healing per interval.

          Considering Body Control allows you to outright multiply your healing speed as early as Life 2, that's not a super huge deal, but being able to effectively nullify the point of Regeneration being a non-Lasting spell with one extra dot in the Arcanum feels like shakier ground.

          As far as the basis for werewolf regeneration, I'd personally point more to the same reason they're immune to the Ecstatic Wind — they have a spiritual link to the world as a whole, which means they're party to the constant flow of vitality that the Shadow and the Dreaming Earth partake of in a way that can't really be directly replicated without the Practice of Entities. You might use Fate to offload damage to a werewolf as it occurs, or persuade one with the Honor Facet of the Gift of Death to take away some wounds, or avail yourself of membership in a pack that's performing the Great Hunt rite and mess with Time so that sunrise comes whatever multiple of four days away you need to heal the aggravated damage keeping you from having all your limbs and organs, but that's all comparatively indirect.

          There's not much of a clean analogue to be done here; notably, the Bay City Marshals' alliance with the Court of the Leafless Tree is accompanied in the text by spells to allow changelings to interface with elements of Awakened cosmology through fae systems, or allow the Awakened to deliberately interface with the Hedge like the fae in a limited fashion by steering the process the Hedge uses to react to everybody, not spells that give mages kiths or use Portaling. It's not like the damage reduction common to the undead, which Death Armor largely replicates — rapid regeneration capable of restoring lost body parts is a fairly high-spec template feature with clear advantages over the comparatively small limits of high-level Life magic, and so it probably shouldn't be something you can gin up with Mastery alone, let alone second-degree Discipleship.


          Resident Lore-Hound
          Currently Consuming: Demon: the Descent 1e

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          • Originally posted by Cauthon View Post

            So my actual intent with this spell is to let you regenerate from Tilts that you'd normally be crippled by. Regeneration is a temporary spell for... reasons that I assume are balance and/or moral-quandry based. So I thought to circumvent that by having a spell allow you to "heal like a werewolf", and regrow what you lose while the spell is active. It won't work on anything you'd already lost, and if it doesn't finish regrowing before the spell ends you're stuck with it, but in between you're much harder to maim

            So the actual /speed/ of your healing is secondary to the spell. Stacking the Body Mastery you described would actually be a good SOP for any Arrow using it.
            Ah, now I see. Coincidentally, the Life 4 aggravated heal time spell is part of the solution. Combined with a use of Transform Life to give you an axolotl's regeneration and they can regrow the limbs entirely, or even internal organs.

            When you heal the aggravated damage corresponding to the lost limb, its considered fully regenerated.


            New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

            The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
            The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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            • Originally posted by Cauthon View Post
              Oh, that's absolutely how it's justified in-setting. But it's also the only healing-type spell I can think of off-hand that isn't Lasting. I think I remember reading somewhere it was a deliberate choice to encourage moral quandries for healer characters, but I may be mis-remembering
              The gist of it is that mages are mortal, and in stark contrast to the likes of vampires and werewolves, have to rely on Mage Armor and specialized magic to ward off damage and heal it quickly for a Mana cost that isn't just Better Than Nothing.

              Mages who wade into direct confrontations suffer the consequences, and that doesn't work out too well if a missing arm is one fire-and-forget spell away from being a minor nuisance; instead, an Adept who has the ability to Clash away Personal Tilts as an innate power and still loses an eye has to make the choice between constantly being down one spell control slot, having a Banner-Bearer you can trust with the spell, or paying the Idiot Tax of one (1) Willpower dot every time this happens.

              Mages are monsters, but in a different way to vampires, werewolves, Prometheans, Bound, mummies, and vat-grown super-soldiers. Wise mages are subtle and sneaky about their conflict resolution. Unwise mages go down screaming.


              Resident Lore-Hound
              Currently Consuming: Demon: the Descent 1e

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              • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                an Adept who has the ability to Clash away Personal Tilts as an innate power and still loses an eye has to make the choice between constantly being down one spell control slot, having a Banner-Bearer you can trust with the spell, or paying the Idiot Tax of one (1) Willpower dot every time this happens.
                I actually find the risk of it being dispelled to be the most terrifying and/or inconvenient aspect of the Regeneration spell. All it takes is one Ansho and you're suddenly down a couple of limbs again. True, Relinquishment is a pain, but you have options like Broken Relinquishment or the Payment In Power spell KaiserAfini helped hammer out further up the thread.

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                • Originally posted by Cauthon View Post
                  I actually find the risk of it being dispelled to be the most terrifying and/or inconvenient aspect of the Regeneration spell. All it takes is one Ansho and you're suddenly down a couple of limbs again. True, Relinquishment is a pain, but you have options like Broken Relinquishment or the Payment In Power spell KaiserAfini helped hammer out further up the thread.
                  If it's your own spell, you have Bodily Autonomy as an extra layer of protection, but also this is continuing to make my point for me: Regeneration is a non-Lasting spell to emphasize the trade-offs you make to work around the problems that necessitate its use, as well as the weight and value of the thing you are offering when you use it on somebody else.

                  I would not look to Ansho as Things To Expect, on account of their being a Mystery specific to a sample setting, and the problems you encounter with them are not specific to limb-replacement spells in the first place.

                  I would likewise not look to a set of spells for alternate relinquishment costs characterized as the products of Left-Handed magic as inconsequential in what they say about a character who uses them regularly, because spell control and the ability to manage it is a much bigger factor in 2e's resource-management overhead.

                  Payment in Power was published in an edition where there was a hard restriction against casting indefinite-duration spells on living targets, and now that that restriction no longer exists with the caveat that they can still be dispelled (with the caveat that dispellation defaults to suppressing effects rather than ending them) there would seem to be extra reason not to let someone pay off the spell control slot for having an arm by giving up points of a fuel source that isn't terribly hard for mages to generate by pursuing Obsessions, performing Legacy oblations, gambling on their Praxes, tapping Hallows, or leveraging a Familiar bond. The options Signs of Sorcery presents are "do some Left-Handed shit or hand the spell off to somebody else" for a reason.


                  Resident Lore-Hound
                  Currently Consuming: Demon: the Descent 1e

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                  • Time Heal (Time •••••)
                    Practice: Unmaking
                    Primary Factor: Potency
                    Withstand: N/A
                    Suggested Rote Skills: Medicine, Science, Survival

                    The life of a mage is fraught with danger. Even the Wisest ones will eventually run into a situation where they or those they care about sustain severe damage. Those well versed in Time know that "time heals all wounds" is more than an old adage.

                    This spell allows the caster to unmake the interval needed for the body to heal wounds. The caster is able to heal the subject up to [Potency] health of any type. The body heals as well as possible, with even bones setting correctly. However, scars still form and missing limbs cannot be restored.

                    Potency may be allocated on a one to one basis to end Conditions that elapse over time (such as Drugged).

                    With conjunctional Fate 4 or Life 3, the healing process is enhanced to the point where wounds heal optimally. New scars do not form and even old ones disappear.

                    In addition, the subject is able to heal missing limbs entirely. Potency may instead be allocated on a one to one basis to regrow them instead, with similar Potency requirements as Regeneration (core book page 152).
                    Last edited by KaiserAfini; 01-21-2022, 08:42 AM.


                    New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                    The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
                    The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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                    • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                      I would not look to Ansho as Things To Expect, on account of their being a Mystery specific to a sample setting, and the problems you encounter with them are not specific to limb-replacement spells in the first place.
                      Sure, but it's a non-directed environmental thaumavor, which actually makes it the least dangerous of the things you could encounter, while still downing you just by walking through it. Heck, another mage can just hit you with Supernal Dispellation.



                      Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                      I would likewise not look to a set of spells for alternate relinquishment costs characterized as the products of Left-Handed magic as inconsequential in what they say about a character who uses them regularly, because spell control and the ability to manage it is a much bigger factor in 2e's resource-management overhead.


                      Payment in Power was published in an edition where there was a hard restriction against casting indefinite-duration spells on living targets, and now that that restriction no longer exists with the caveat that they can still be dispelled (with the caveat that dispellation defaults to suppressing effects rather than ending them) there would seem to be extra reason not to let someone pay off the spell control slot for having an arm by giving up points of a fuel source that isn't terribly hard for mages to generate by pursuing Obsessions, performing Legacy oblations, gambling on their Praxes, tapping Hallows, or leveraging a Familiar bond. The options Signs of Sorcery presents are "do some Left-Handed shit or hand the spell off to somebody else" for a reason.
                      I can't really see the ease of generating mana as a reason to disallow Payment In Power, even in this edition. Setting aside the fact that Praxis gambling and Familiar Bond leveraging are exploits developed by players rather than actual in-setting practices, Payment In Power fits thematically with the rest of the setting. You have to take the time and spend the commodity to achieve your desired result, both of which hubristic mages will often try to circumvent. Why should they have to walk around with two filled spell-control slots while PiP runs its course when they could just ask the local Life Master to make a couple of sacrificial cows using Create Life? Sacrificing a living being for mana is a Wisdom sin -although the core book never listed what level- but the gamble that you can retain your Wisdom through killing temporary creatures is still a circumvention of any XP cost, and barely pings on the average person's morality.


                      Bringing my babble back to the original spell under scrutiny, Overclocked Regeneration doesn't have to use Werewolves as a template. The ever-popular Axolotl works just as well, which means you could just as easily use Transform Life. In both cases, the spell boils down to a pretty significant limitation - you can only regenerate limbs if you are under the spell's effect from time of wounding to time of healing. Spell gets suppressed halfway through healing? Stuck with half a hand. Forgot to cast it before combat? Die screaming even faster than most, since you've conditioned yourself to recklessness. Walk around with it always up? Disbelief is bound to get you at some point, if not the glowing billboard you're setting up to anyone who can see spells.


                      In the end though, both Payment In Power and Overclocked Regeneration are custom spells. They only work if the Storyteller approves them, but there's nothing wrong with trying to polish them a bit. I'd love to hear any mechanical adjustments you might have for improving them.


                      Here's a convoluted one - a spell that you have to cast simultaneously to another, targeting that spell. It creates a "simulation" of how that imago would play out as-cast, allowing you to check for flaws or warping. If you "sim" more than one at once, you can see how those castings might interact.

                      This means that, working alone, you likely won't be able to cast it as a Rote. Unless you have a conditional Hung spell, maybe?

                      I'm thinking Prime 4 + Time 3, Unraveling with Duration as the primary factor. Not sure how it would display the results - a Scying-type window maybe?

                      Anyone have any thought or suggestions, before I give it a spin?
                      Last edited by Cauthon; 01-21-2022, 03:27 PM.

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                      • Originally posted by Cauthon View Post
                        Here's a convoluted one - a spell that you have to cast simultaneously to another, targeting that spell. It creates a "simulation" of how that imago would play out as-cast, allowing you to check for flaws or warping. If you "sim" more than one at once, you can see how those castings might interact.

                        This means that, working alone, you likely won't be able to cast it as a Rote. Unless you have a conditional Hung spell, maybe?

                        I'm thinking Prime 4 + Time 3, Unraveling with Duration as the primary factor. Not sure how it would display the results - a Scying-type window maybe?

                        Any thoughts, before I give it a spin?
                        So, wait, when is this simulation spell being cast? Before the real spell? Because if it’s a combined spell, the simulation doesn’t take effect until the other spell does, ie too late to do anything about it. I would treat this like Hung Spell, with Potency spells effected while duration lasts.
                        Secondly, I’m not sure this needs Prime 4, seems like it builds off Display of Power or doesn’t need Prime at all.
                        Last edited by TempleBuilder; 01-21-2022, 03:17 PM.


                        To whomever reads this, I hope you have a good day/night. May you be Happy.

                        So, I made some Mage Legacies here, with some help. They vary in quality, but I hope you take a look at them. Every one contains pieces of me, for better or worse.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by TempleBuilder View Post
                          So, wait, when is this simulation spell being cast? Before the real spell? Because if it’s a combined spell, the simulation doesn’t take effect until the other spell does, ie too late to do anything about it. I would treat this like Hung Spell, with Potency spells effected while duration lasts.
                          My internal logic was that you cast "Sim Space" targeting the imago of the spell you want to analyze, rendering it un-real before the analyzed spell can manifest but still allowing the Supernal to be drawn across the Abyss. Its a bit hinky, I'll readily admit.

                          Originally posted by TempleBuilder View Post
                          Secondly, I’m not sure this needs Prime 4, seems like it builds off Display of Power or doesn’t need Prime at all.
                          Partially I was trying to think of a non-destructive Unraveling spell for Prime. In my head it reads as kind of a blending of Supernal Dispellation, Display of Power, and either Choose the Thread or a high-reach Divination.
                          Last edited by Cauthon; 01-21-2022, 03:50 PM.

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                          • Originally posted by Cauthon View Post

                            My internal logic was that you cast "Sim Space" targeting the imago of the spell you want to analyze, rendering it un-real before the analyzed spell can manifest but still allowing the Supernal to be drawn across the Abyss. Its a bit hinky, I'll readily admit.
                            I think this does work. You have to call down the spell suppressed, but it works.
                            Originally posted by Cauthon View Post
                            Partially I was trying to think of a non-destructive Unraveling spell for Prime. In my head it reads as kind of a blending of Supernal Dispellation, Display of Power, and Choose the Thread
                            Hmm, it does seem like a advanced Choose the Thread. You don’t need Supernal Dispellation, you could also use Temporal Stutter for roughly the same effect. Oh, or this could use Dispel Magic as a basis instead, since you can’t cast magic you don’t have dots for. So really you only need Prime 3 + Time 2?

                            Edit: I don’t think Unraveling in general is constructive, I mean, by definition it’s deconstructive since it tears down something that exists. You might be able to turn that to constructive purposes, but something is weaker by definition. Maybe you could weaken the pressure uncomfortable Truths exerts on things? Like a more gentle Words of Truth? Or maybe you could weaken the hold Obsessions have on Mages.
                            Last edited by TempleBuilder; 01-21-2022, 04:14 PM.


                            To whomever reads this, I hope you have a good day/night. May you be Happy.

                            So, I made some Mage Legacies here, with some help. They vary in quality, but I hope you take a look at them. Every one contains pieces of me, for better or worse.

                            Comment


                            • I think it might not be necessary, page 111 suggests that one thing is the Imago itself and another thing is releasing it, imposing it unto the subject. So I always ruled it as the mage being able to choose if they will cast the spell with Paradox or simply abort. Sometimes you can't afford to take another 3 seconds to try again or take your time to mitigate via mana. You contain the Paradox, release it, whatever. But inaction could have catastrophic consequences, so you choose to brave the perils.

                              Normally, flaws happens when you Reach beyond your grasp, which is a deliberate choice. Its also the result of an Abyssal condition or some external factor (environmental tilt, Invader, Scelestus, etc). I think mages would know when their Imagos suddenly start becoming corrupted and incorporating symbolic nonsense (literally since logic is a purview of the Mind and that is the Supernal's domain).

                              Lastly, spells normally warp in "unpredictable" (the end of chapters) and unknown way. Maybe Prophecy can tell you when, how and if it will warp (by rolling the dice beforehand). Then you just limit the duration during casting.


                              New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                              The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
                              The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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                              • Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
                                I think it might not be necessary, page 111 suggests that one thing is the Imago itself and another thing is releasing it, imposing it unto the subject. So I always ruled it as the mage being able to choose if they will cast the spell with Paradox or simply abort. Sometimes you can't afford to take another 3 seconds to try again or take your time to mitigate via mana. You contain the Paradox, release it, whatever. But inaction could have catastrophic consequences, so you choose to brave the perils.

                                Normally, flaws happens when you Reach beyond your grasp, which is a deliberate choice. Its also the result of an Abyssal condition or some external factor (environmental tilt, Invader, Scelestus, etc). I think mages would know when their Imagos suddenly start becoming corrupted and incorporating symbolic nonsense (literally since logic is a purview of the Mind and that is the Supernal's domain).

                                Lastly, spells normally warp in "unpredictable" (the end of chapters) and unknown way. Maybe Prophecy can tell you when, how and if it will warp (by rolling the dice beforehand). Then you just limit the duration during casting.
                                That's a good point, I'm mostly trying to use this as a maintenance tool or precautionary diagnostic. Got a Grimoire with a Rote of unknown Providence? Run it through Sim Space to see if you can spot a hidden barb. Think a Rote might have become Warped? Sim Space!

                                It would also serve as a development tool. Designing a spell in an arcana that you're poorly practiced in? Run it through Sim Space to see if you have the gist right yet
                                Last edited by Cauthon; 01-21-2022, 04:38 PM.

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