Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Creative Thaumaturgy: Fallen World Edition

Collapse
This is a sticky topic.
X
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Knit-I-Fine View Post
    Alright, so yeah, it appears to be 1e, but the claim that it's a different game seems wrong?
    It is literally impossible for a character to get a sixth dot of an Arcanum without changing the way the universe works to make themselves an archmaster, which is a thing that occupies broadly the same narrative space as Werewolf accords to the Firstborn and Luna or Changeling accords to the greater powers of the True Fae.

    No amount of arcane might in a Mage game is going to make a regular mage capable of geographically affecting even something as small as a city with a single spell, because that degree of influence shares space with plot devices like the self-sustaining spells, template surgery, soul-reduplication, and raw-thematic-fiat effects of the Practices of Dynamics, Excision, Entities, Dominions, and Transfiguration, which are archmagic used by mages who've dived so deep into their obsession with occult power that they've warped their entire place in reality out of shape and live inside their own souls.

    You could hypothetically affect the entire world with a spell with six dots in the Arcanum and no more, but getting the sixth dot in an Arcanum is the kind of thing you can build the end of a chronicle around.


    Resident Sanguinary Analyst
    Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

    Comment


    • Could not agree more, and in fact the main dev Dave did in fact do.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
        IYou could hypothetically affect the entire world with a spell with six dots in the Arcanum and no more, but getting the sixth dot in an Arcanum is the kind of thing you can build the end of a chronicle around.
        Cool? Not sure where this weird lecture is coming from? Like, first of all, assuming I was asking as a player who wants their mage to do something super cool, still would be weirdly condescending. But as a storyteller I can design whatever character I want? And have them start at whatever power I want them to start with? I was just curious about what level an important characters forces would be. I'll make a note not to dare to ask simple power level questions in the future.

        Comment


        • Thing is, the answer to any such question as the Storyteller is "whatever I think works for this story" You could just devise an Artifact or a place of power or any other thing that increases the reach of magic way beyond what is ussually assumed to be the max limits and as long as is interesting, what else matters?


          I'm So Meta Even This Acronym

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Knit-I-Fine View Post
            Cool? Not sure where this weird lecture is coming from?
            "What level of power would it take for an Awakened character to do this thing that exceeds the specifically-stated limits of Awakened magic?"
            "The specifically-stated limits of Awakened magic mean you would need a lot of separate characters maintaining their own instances of the spell at once, but that level of power would be covered by Practices around the middle of the Arcanum dot ladder."
            "Yeah but it seems like if a single character had a level of power that specifically breaks the limits they could do it on their own."
            "Yes, but that single character would have to be breaking the limits, which means a specific thing in Mage: the Awakening. We don't bother mentioning them in questions about what the average Awakened character can do because they're the furthest thing from the average Awakened character."
            "That's vague and unhelpful. Another answer, please."
            "The first answer is saying that the specific thing breaking the limits of Awakened magic means in Mage: the Awakening happens to relegate most of those characters to plot devices and deus ex machina. The difference between an archmaster with six dots in Forces and an archmaster with nine dots in Forces is mostly academic to anyone who isn't looking at their character sheet."
            "So the game is broken and there's no difference between a character that's one order of magnitude past the limits and a character that's five orders of magnitude past the limits?"

            You asked how a character could change the world on a grand scale with a singular use of magic, and when told the answer to that was "by being the kind of incredibly uncommon and inhumanly driven entity you have to change the world to become in the first place, at which point the specific limits of your powers beyond the particular things they can mess with are largely gone," you started Having An Attitude about it.

            Archmaster spells that aren't just souped-up versions of the Common Practices need ritual components that take entire stories to acquire, which is a thing that was known by name since Tome of the Mysteries. That same book also lays out why archmasters don't usually do world-shaking magic on a world-shaking scale in social terms and contains a sidebar in the same section with advice on how to run Imperial Magic. Tome of the Mysteries has been out for over ten years and much of the broad strokes of its content on archmasters is repeated in the 2e corebook's section on archmasters.

            I'll make a note not to dare to ask simple power level questions in the future.
            You'd be better served making a note to ask for clarification when you're not satisfied by the level of detail in an answer instead of calling it vague and unhelpful and putting out an open call for someone else to engage with you right after you insulted an answer that didn't meet your standards.
            Last edited by Satchel; 01-08-2018, 04:07 PM. Reason: Typos.


            Resident Sanguinary Analyst
            Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Knit-I-Fine View Post
              It seems reasonable that to me that there is some 6+ value where a single mage could perform the feat. Is that untrue?
              Imperial Mysteries translates fairly well to 2e, but you need patch rules. These are fairly complete: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...Y1fCa7UHI/edit

              To affect the entire world is not possible as a single regular mage. Forces 6, with the Practice of Dynamics, could make a spell that propagates around the world and dynamically alters conditions of global warming on an international scale.

              Imperial Mysteries isn't really a separate game per se, but the way archmasters are played are fundamentally different from regular mages because of what they can do. The book literally has an optional system called Imperium which calls for running sub-games of regular Mage: the Awakening in order to advance archmages' agendas. In that sense, it's a different game. The subject matter is also different. Archmages are not focused around urban sorcery and solving local problems. They have cosmic agendas and are usually amoral self-interested actors. They deal with gods and worlds beyond human comprehension on a regular basis. A single spell or Imperium rite from an archmage can completely change the world and the rules by which it operates.

              That being said, it can be really fun to blow up the universe with imperial magic (only likely to have someone restore it and then come after you).

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Knit-I-Fine View Post
                That answer is equally vague and unhelpful. I'll wait for another.
                Originally posted by Knit-I-Fine View Post
                Cool? Not sure where this weird lecture is coming from? Like, first of all, assuming I was asking as a player who wants their mage to do something super cool, still would be weirdly condescending. But as a storyteller I can design whatever character I want? And have them start at whatever power I want them to start with? I was just curious about what level an important characters forces would be. I'll make a note not to dare to ask simple power level questions in the future.
                I am only infracting one of these posts because they are, functionally the same offense. Please keep in mind that you are not required to respond to posts you don't like. If you do take the time to respond, take the time to be courteous.
                Originally posted by Rule 1: Respect other people
                Don’t personally attack other users, members of their gaming groups, and so on. Also, don’t attack groups of people. That means avoiding racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic and similar insults. Racial, sexual, and other slurs, as well as misgendering, count as insults. Please also avoid broad declarations that attack a group of people to get around making a “personal” attack. Like all rules, this rule applies equally to people working for Onyx Path, White Wolf, Paradox, and CCP.
                Originally posted by Rule 2: Respect the conversation
                Don’t try to incite others to break the rules, or distract from the subject at hand. This includes threadcrapping, the posting of short messages or images which add nothing to a thread and serve only to express a user’s displeasure with it.


                Onyx Path Forum Moderator
                Read the rules

                This is my mod voice.
                This is not my mod voice.

                Comment


                • Apologies if this has been asked before, but has anyone homebrewed some spells for creating illusions with either Prime or Forces?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Katana1515 View Post
                    Apologies if this has been asked before, but has anyone homebrewed some spells for creating illusions with either Prime or Forces?
                    In many cases Veiling is the Practice that covers illusions regardless of arcana, making something seem like what it isn’t is part of Veiling after all.

                    Saying “illusion” is too vague. Define the term.

                    Comment


                    • This is a spell I've been considering for a while. I'm not entirely certain about it, whether it should require a point of Mana, etc. But, this is what I have:

                      Hasten Symbolism (Time •••)
                      Practice: Perfecting
                      Primary Factor: Duration
                      Suggested Rote Skills: Athletics, Expression, Occult

                      The mage enhances the target's ability to conceptualize the symbols of magical power, condensing what would take multiple moments into a single, graceful movement. The next time the target casts a spell during this spell's Duration, the target may utilize an additional number of Yantras equal to this spell's Potency in the same reflexive action. This does not affect Yantras that normally require more than a reflexive action to employ (such as High Speech or Runes), nor does it increase the Gnosis-derived number of Yantras the target may access.

                      +1 Reach: The target can use the High Speech Yantra as a reflexive action.
                      +1 Reach: Add this spell's Potency to the target's Gnosis for the purpose of determining how long it takes to draw runes.
                      +1 Reach, +1 Mana: The target benefits from this spell's effects on a number of spells equal to Potency.

                      Comment


                      • You should change Reflexive to Instant, since actual Reflexive spells are rare. Also wouldn't it make some sense to incorporate at least Prime 3 as well, since Yantras sort of fall under that purview?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by projectmoon View Post
                          You should change Reflexive to Instant, since actual Reflexive spells are rare. Also wouldn't it make some sense to incorporate at least Prime 3 as well, since Yantras sort of fall under that purview?
                          Not really, you’re not affecting the Yantra, you’re compressing the time it takes to use them.

                          Also, the spell isn’t reflexive, it’s the use of Yantras that’s being made Reflexive which is already partially part of the Yantra rules.
                          Last edited by Mrmdubois; 01-12-2018, 05:32 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Hey everyone,

                            What are your thoughts on this spell?

                            Supernal Disconnect (Prime •••)
                            Practice: Fraying
                            Primary Factor: Potency
                            Cost: Varies (See Below)
                            Withstand: Gnosis
                            Suggested Rote Skills: Occult, Larceny, Intimidation
                            A mage can reduce the Supernal Connection a person possesses making it harder for them to use magical tools with a connection to the Supernal World. Any attempts to use a magical item by the subject of this spell suffers a penalty equal to Potency on a number of uses equal to Potency.
                            +2 Reach: This spell inflicts a penalty equal to Potency on all spells cast by the subject for a number of rolls equal to Potency.
                            +1 Reach: This spell can effect Focused Mage Sight acting as a penalty equal to Potency on a number of Scrutiny Rolls equal to the Potency.
                            +1 Reach and 1 Mana: This spell can reduce the number of merit dots equal to Potency available to Sleepwalkers involving their connection to the Supernal Realms (Banner-Bearer, Relic Attuned, etc).
                            Last edited by Taldorblackfire; 01-18-2018, 01:51 PM.


                            "Teamwork makes the dream work!"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Taldorblackfire View Post
                              Hey everyone,

                              What are your thoughts on this spell?

                              Supernal Disconnect (Prime •••)
                              Practice: Fraying
                              Primary Factor: Potency
                              Cost: Varies (See Below)
                              Withstand: Gnosis
                              Suggested Rote Skills: Occult, Larceny, Intimidation
                              A mage can reduce the Supernal Connection a person possesses making it harder for them to use magic or utilize tools with a connection to the Supernal World. Any attempts to cast a spell or use a magical item by the subject of this spell suffers a penalty equal to the Potency of this spell.
                              +1 Reach: This spell reduces the caster's effective Gnosis equal to Potency for determining the number of Yantras available. (Minimum 1)
                              +1 Reach: This spell can effect Active Mage Sight removing the 10-again on Clash of Wills to pierce veiling effects.
                              +1 Reach: This spell can effect Focused Mage Sight acting as a penalty to Scrutiny Rolls equal to the Potency of this spell.
                              +1 Reach and 1 Mana: This spell can disable the effects of certain merits available to Sleepwalkers involving their connection to the Supernal Realms (Banner-Bearer, Relic Attuned, etc).
                              I like the concept of the spell.

                              I'm pretty sure that you're not supposed to use Supernatural Tolerance to Withstand spells. At least not usually. I say this as someone who designed a spell that was Withstood by Blood Potency! If you keep the Withstand as Gnosis, you should technically put "Supernatural Tolerance" as the Withstand trait. Maybe Resolve should be the Withstand trait instead?

                              The penalty should affect only a number of rolls equal to Potency. This is from the Creative Thaumaturgy guidelines.

                              Normally spells that affect spellcasting require 2 Reach. Even Blink of an Eye, a Time 5 spell, requires 2 Reach and 1 Mana to affect spellcasting rolls. I would suggest that the spell only give a penalty to using Artifacts, Imbued Items, and other items connected to the Supernal Realms. Add a +2 Reach and 1 Mana option to make it affect spellcasting rolls.

                              I don't think there is a single thing in the book that alters the nature of Clash of Wills rolls beyond bonuses granted by Duration, so I would remove this Reach effect.

                              The Reach effect for disabling Sleepwalker merits is a cool idea. Instead of outright disabling them, I think it would make more sense if it reduces the dots of the merits by Potency, down to zero dots.

                              The Reach effect for reducing Yantras used sounds to me more like an Unraveling (4 dots) effect, but this is personal opinion.

                              Comment


                              • I'm pretty sure that you're not supposed to use Supernatural Tolerance to Withstand spells. At least not usually. I say this as someone who designed a spell that was Withstood by Blood Potency! If you keep the Withstand as Gnosis, you should technically put "Supernatural Tolerance" as the Withstand trait. Maybe Resolve should be the Withstand trait instead?
                                Well, I thought about that, but one of the spells released in Signs of Sorcery spoilers uses Opacity which can range from 1 to 10. Also, I felt it is the Supernal Connection being targeted versus the actual person itself, so I felt Gnosis would be the best trait representing how much of a connection a mage had to the Supernal.

                                The penalty should affect only a number of rolls equal to Potency. This is from the Creative Thaumaturgy guidelines.
                                Quite right, and has been corrected. Thank you.

                                Normally spells that affect spellcasting require 2 Reach. Even Blink of an Eye, a Time 5 spell, requires 2 Reach and 1 Mana to affect spellcasting rolls. I would suggest that the spell only give a penalty to using Artifacts, Imbued Items, and other items connected to the Supernal Realms. Add a +2 Reach and 1 Mana option to make it affect spellcasting rolls.
                                I hesitated on this, but I think you are correct despite Prime's purview being "Magic", so I have instead used +2 Reach option.

                                I don't think there is a single thing in the book that alters the nature of Clash of Wills rolls beyond bonuses granted by Duration, so I would remove this Reach effect.
                                You are correct, I may revisit this at another time because I imagine there is a way to influence Clash of Wills in a negative fashion, but it may be game breaking.

                                The Reach effect for disabling Sleepwalker merits is a cool idea. Instead of outright disabling them, I think it would make more sense if it reduces the dots of the merits by Potency, down to zero dots.
                                This has been implemented.

                                The Reach effect for reducing Yantras used sounds to me more like an Unraveling (4 dots) effect, but this is personal opinion.
                                I feel this might actually be unmaking and have removed it.


                                "Teamwork makes the dream work!"

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X