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  • Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
    Another approach to lasting transfiguration would be to have said transfiguration be a side effect of the magic, and not the direct result.
    Or do what everyone else does and cast it as indefinite duration then relinquish it.

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    • However that requires expenditure of a Willpower Dot, which is equivalent to an experience, and can be dispelled.

      Also having the transfiguration be a side effect of the Magic is exactly what I did.
      The spell enables the movement of sub-atomic particles.
      End that spell, and they stay where they are, in the new atoms.

      A comparison would be the State Change spell.
      Turn a steel block into liquid, and it will lose its original shape and turn into a puddle of steel on the ground.
      End the spell, and it remains a puddle, but returns to its solid state.
      Last edited by HerbertIsBestBert; 04-16-2018, 06:48 PM.

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      • Originally posted by Arduras View Post
        Or do what everyone else does and cast it as indefinite duration then relinquish it.
        Yeah, but the flaws there involve vulnerability to dispellation, and either an experience cost (willpower dot) or the chance that your magic is going to wreak havoc on the material and everything surrounding it as time passes.

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        • I figure if the devs wanted lasting transmutation they'd have put it in like the scribe Grimoire spell. Assuming this fits in your setting, why not just make it a 2 or 3 reach option
          Last edited by Arduras; 04-18-2018, 12:22 PM.

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          • The Scribe Grimoire example is different, because the existence and proliferation of Grimoires throughout Mage society works on the assumption that you don't need to spend a Willpower dot to relinquish them, or you can only maintain a number at a time.

            Also sure you can just add a +2 Reach option to Matter 4's Tramutation spell.
            But that's incredibly boring.

            I wanted to add a bit of a reward for someone reaching second degree Disciple-dom with a strong scientific Praxis, or second degree Adept-hood and a general idea.

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            • Been a long time since I've done this; my take on Prime illusion spells:

              Eye of the Beholder (Prime 2)
              Practice:
              Veiling
              Primary Factor: Duration
              Suggested Rote Skills: Occult, Stealth, Subterfuge
              The Arcanum of Prime holds domain over truth itself, but in this Fallen World truth is not so absolute as it is in the Supernal. This spell veils a particular truth of an object from detection, suppressing the ability of others to be able to acknowledge that truth. With this spell, a mage could veil a person's identity such that people seeing them would only know that it is "a person" without being able to acknowledge or recognize the person even if they are intimately familiar with them. They could veil the remote control to a particular television, causing people to disregard it as belonging to some other device. On a more sinister note, a mage could veil faulty wiring or a weak floor to make it seem functional. This is an incredibly delicate and subtle spell, and does not hold up to dedicated scrutiny. Recorded media in particular do not carry the effects of this spell, and a person or object veiled in such a way is still recognizable to anyone who would know it.

              From a Certain Point of View (Prime 3)
              Practice:
              Weaving
              Primary Factor: Duration
              Suggested Rote Skills: Occult, Stealth, Subterfuge
              Truth is malleable in this world, especially in the hands of the willworker. This spell weaves an object's truth into another form, making one thing seem like another of the same general type and size. The illusion weaved by this spell affects all senses but doesn't hold up to actual use. A stick could be made to look like a sturdy club and will feel like a sturdy club right up until it's used, at which point it'll break just like a stick. Living (and undead) creatures cannot be the target of this spell; their constant sense of self instantly erodes any attempt at changing their truth.

              Well Now You're Just Screwing With Me (Prime 4)
              Practice:
              Patterning
              Primary Factor: Duration
              Suggested Rote Skills: Occult, Stealth, Subterfuge
              A philosophy professor asks his class to disprove the existence of a chair for their final grade. Sleeping students will frantically attempt to enact such a feat using complex ideologies while the Awakened philosopher merely asks, "What chair?" The mage transforms an object's truth into some other truth, transforming the object in all but a real sense. The applications of this spell are manifold, but none are lasting. Any attempt to truly interact with a transformed object beyond cursory examinations instantly ends the spell, with objective reality snapping the object's truth back into place. A mage could make a chair seem like a refrigerator, but any attempt to open the fridge will result in a person swinging a chair around. Simply seeing the refrigerator or touching it won't do it, but leaning against it or hitting it will. Living (and undead) creatures cannot be the target of this spell; their constant sense of self instantly erodes any attempt at changing their truth.
              Last edited by Frishman; 04-17-2018, 01:35 PM. Reason: Added Prime 4 version; adjusted Prime 3 version to not be applicable to living objects.

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              • This is a version of the "True love" spell from silver ladder. Originally it was a 5 dot effect, but i stripped out most of the "functions" of it, and added them back as reach options.
                Oath of Friendship (Fate •••)

                Practice: Weaving
                Primary Factor: Potency
                Withstand: Composure
                Suggested Rote Skills: Socialize, Persuasion, Politics
                The spell sanctifies an existing bond of friendship, giving it supernatural depth. All subjects of the spell gain the benefits of The True friend with respect to each other. If a subject of the spell is turned against the others, they suffer a Hex.
                As long as the spell is within spell control, the caster of the spell knows which of the subjects are benefitting from the spell, and which of their number has gotten a hex.
                +1 Reach: If a subject enters the oath with false feelings of friendship, they suffer a Hex instead of the benefits of the spell.
                +1 Reach: The subjects the spell also know which of their number have gotten a hex.
                +1 Reach: The subjects of the spell are aware if one of the participants dies.
                +0 Reach: When cast with exactly two participants that already have the true Friend merit, the spell grants the Loved merit. This variation is usually called “True love”.
                +1 Reach: The subjects may spend Willpower on behalf of each other.
                +1 Reach: Damage received by one subject is shared equally between the subjects of the spell.
                +1 Reach: Supernatural effects that would turn one subject against the others cause a clash of wills.

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                • Prime 2 Life 1 : Liar's mark
                  Practice : Ruling/unveiling

                  Primary factor Duration
                  Withstand by composure
                  Suggested rote skills : medecine, empathy, survival

                  By linking his mind to the estatic truth of the primal wilds, the subject eyes are more alert o the telltale signs of lies and the is more quick to catch up on body language, the subject gains the informed condition for the purpose of determining what are the reasons of a person for lying to him.
                  +1 reach the mage remove social doors equal to the potency of the spells as his body is in tune with his victim in a primal level
                  +1 reach and 1 mana : the mage knows what are his vicitms lies and impose the guilty or leveraged condition
                  +1 reach and 1 mana : the mage brand the subject with an invisible rune marking the victim as a liar, thus lowering by one impression level of the victim by level of potency
                  Last edited by Emerick; 04-19-2018, 02:45 PM.

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                  • Originally posted by Emerick View Post
                    Prime 2 Life 1 : Liar's mark
                    Practice : Ruling/unveiling
                    So, spells only have one practice. This should be Unveiling or Knowing (there's no reason for Prime 2), that said...

                    This doesn't fit any of Life's purviews, and though Prime's purview is Truth, there's already a Prime spell that does something similar. If you want to know someone's reasons for lying, you'd be better off with Prime 1 / Fate 1, since intent falls under Fate. I can see the desire to add Life to explain how the subject is processing the information they receive (instinctual awareness of body language) but Second Edition has entirely eliminated secondary arcana for that purpose - Knowing & Unveiling spells already allow you to fully interpret the information you receive by default.

                    The branding should probably be a separate spell. It's the only part of the spell that requires a higher level of Arcana, and doesn't actually seem that linked to the other effects of the spell.
                    Last edited by lnodiv; 04-20-2018, 09:30 AM.

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                    • Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
                      So, spells only have one practice. This should be Unveiling or Knowing (there's no reason for Prime 2), that said...

                      This doesn't fit any of Life's purviews, and though Prime's purview is Truth, there's already a Prime spell that does something similar. If you want to know someone's reasons for lying, you'd be better off with Prime 1 / Fate 1, since intent falls under Fate. I can see the desire to add Life to explain how the subject is processing the information they receive (instinctual awareness of body language) but Second Edition has entirely eliminated secondary arcana for that purpose - Knowing & Unveiling spells already allow you to fully interpret the information you receive by default.

                      The branding should probably be a separate spell. It's the only part of the spell that requires a higher level of Arcana, and doesn't actually seem that linked to the other effects of the spell.

                      Hum i tought adding life for the first reach maked sense, but the idea of the brand was more a thematic reaction to the effect of the spells. So does the spell makes no sense or is it just inneficient and coule be done with less arcana ? I liked the life part because it fits the thrysus theme, attuning your body language and chemistry with those of the subject of the spell to know more about them, knowing someone emotional state of level of stress fits with Life theme

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                      • Originally posted by Emerick View Post
                        Hum i tought adding life for the first reach maked sense, but the idea of the brand was more a thematic reaction to the effect of the spells. So does the spell makes no sense or is it just inneficient and coule be done with less arcana ? I liked the life part because it fits the thrysus theme, attuning your body language and chemistry with those of the subject of the spell to know more about them, knowing someone emotional state of level of stress fits with Life theme
                        You could make yourself hyper-sensitive to another person’s body language and chemistry with just Life if that’s the effect you want, you don’t need Prime. It probably wouldn’t tell you for sure if someone was lying though, probably just a die bonus on lie detection rolls. It also wouldn’t reveal why someone is lying.

                        Prime by itself can tell you if someone is lying automatically, but also can’t tell you why, I agree with @Inodiv that would be better handled with Fate.

                        The brand Reach I also agree should be a different spell, probably Prime 3. Technicall, invisible runes are Prime 2, but only Mages would react to that.

                        Taking a look at just the spell, it can be done better with fewer arcana, and should be split into more than one spell.

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                        • Well you need at least a practice of two to create most mundane condition, and the spell words of truth can affect non mage on a soul deep level, that was what i was tryingnto emulate with the brand reach but yeah i kinda see why i should be another spell

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                          • Just to be clear i'm not arguing against you, it's just my first spell and i kinda want to know why it don't work for you guys, the life aspect is really here for the first reach and the thematic aspect

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                            • The first Reach ought to just be a Life spell by itself. I don’t think it’s a great idea to add arcana requirements to a spell just so you can throw in a neat Reach effect. If you’re thinking of doing it then the Reach effect is probably better off as a separate spell.

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                              • Isn't that what spell why multiples arcana are for ? More tailored and diverse effect balanced by the fact you need to invest in multiple arcanum ?

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