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[2E] Left Hand Yantras

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  • [2E] Left Hand Yantras

    ( Note: Yes, I know it's only days before premiere. But this idea springs to me on and off few months now, so I lay ground work for the talk about it. If you do not want to discuss before proper corebook, return just in one week time. )

    We know them all. Sacrificing virgin. Still beating heart ripped from chest. Blood of the new born. Shattering innocent.

    Fiction about evil sorcerers and using morally black "components" is full of them. I assume we will not see them in corebook as those examples are extreme - but they are needed for truly Black Arts magicians stories. Our Scelesti and Mad need this kind of roads to power. Need to uncover them in damned Grimoires of Left Hand mages. You get the drill.

    So how they should work? Well, we talk here about extreme stuff that most people would not like to get into, even Awakened. So it should have real power to make them tempted. But also heavy price on Wisdom of user. Relating this to Yantras rules spoiler:

    Originally posted by Yantras spoiler
    Unlocking the Imago When a mage uses a Yantra in the working of a spell, she adds bonus dice to her spellcasting dice pool. The number of dice varies by the Yantra that she uses. These bonus dice can help eliminate penalties to her spellcasting pool, or provide bonuses. A mage can only get so much help from Yantras — after offsetting any penalties, the maximum bonus from all her Yantras combined cannot exceed 5 dice.
    A mage may want to use as many Yantras as possible in her spellcasting, especially for powerful acts of magic. She can however only access so many pieces of Supernal knowledge at once. To reflect this, the number of Yantras she can apply to a given spellcasting pool is limited by her Gnosis. If she uses one ritual item in many ways, each individual use counts as one Yantra for this limit.
    Listed Yantras gives up to +3 bonus each, in maximum positive example. To beat it, the truly Black Arts stuff should give you an extreme +5 for each Yantra - but it's Wisdom sin to use them. Not even just because they are immoral - but because you do really hardcore actions to fuel your magic, shattering your own sense of limits - what is definition of Unwise behavior.
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 04-29-2016, 06:42 PM.


    My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
    LGBT+ through Ages
    LGBT+ in CoD games

  • #2
    I've always been more inclined to treat the lure of "powerful sacrifices" (lives and souls mostly) as sort of pre-Archmastery quintessences that allow the normal restrictions on certain magic to be broken (like allowing effects otherwise temporary to become permanent). The "reach" rules may end up superceding this though. We'll see on Wednesday.


    Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

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    • #3
      Can you be a haruspex that uses human organs for your Fate spells?


      Remi. she/her. game designer.

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      • #4
        Aw. I thought you were going to be referencing something like the Ozaki Eight.

        I think you can get at what you want by saying certain yantras give you 1 additional Reach. The drawback of doing so is that, since the criteria for the yantra is very exact, you have to get it perfect or you'll gain nothing and instead have an additional Paradox dice. Or something like that.


        I call the Integrity-analogue the "subjective stat".
        An explanation how to use Social Manuevering.
        Guanxi Explanations: 1, 2, 3.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by atamajakki View Post
          Can you be a haruspex that uses human organs for your Fate spells?
          I do not see a problem on that with Yantras way - haruspicy ( or any other common occult practice ) then is just "focusing" Awakened Supernal Magic. As those practices are much more known to mage even before his Awakening, they resonate him harder and make clearer Imago for his spells. This sacrificing or harming humans have a "boost" of also shattering moral limitation of mage, so his Magic is much less restrained that for normal Awakened.

          I would say that haruspicy of animals give +1 bonus for animals to each up Size 5, up to +3 for animals of Size 15 ( Taking down elephant is really extreme ) - IF animal symbology fit with prediction of both Time and Fate. On the other hand - humans organs would always gives you +5, for "shattering limits of what human should to another", but risking Wisdom degeneration.

          Still, need to asses those with corebook rules and bonuses.

          Originally posted by Errol216 View Post
          Aw. I thought you were going to be referencing something like the Ozaki Eight.
          What does "father of the Japanese Constitution" have in common with magical focusing practices / using exotic components ( i.e. Yantras system )?

          Originally posted by Errol216 View Post
          I think you can get at what you want by saying certain yantras give you 1 additional Reach. The drawback of doing so is that, since the criteria for the yantra is very exact, you have to get it perfect or you'll gain nothing and instead have an additional Paradox dice. Or something like that.
          I think that 1 additional Reach can be to low on this - it's easily to take 1 Paradox dice and get the same result. Especially, as those practices would mostly be Wisdom sins - then no player would not play with them.

          Maybe 3 extra Reach will do fine, but do not sure how this imbalance system. We will see - I will have this idea in mind when looking over rules.


          My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
          LGBT+ through Ages
          LGBT+ in CoD games

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          • #6
            Originally posted by atamajakki View Post
            Can you be a haruspex that uses human organs for your Fate spells?
            There's even a legacy for that, though I think the ruling arcana is Time instead of Fate.

            The two most common Yantras that give a +2 are High Speech and Rote Mudras. I don't really see a need for "extreme" Yantras to give more than a +3. I mean, a virgin sacrifice has got to be easier to come by than say a unicorn horn and that would only give a +3 at most.
            Last edited by Mrmdubois; 04-29-2016, 11:11 PM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
              What does "father of the Japanese Constitution" have in common with magical focusing practices / using exotic components ( i.e. Yantras system )?
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_...015_film)#Plot

              According to the movie character Johnny Utah 'the Osaki 8' is named after Ono Osaki, an eco-warrior who challenged the extreme sports world to a series of eight ordeals that honor the forces of nature. The challenge is to create a perfect line when completing the trials. Although Johnny Utah claims it is a path to enlightenment, Bodhi says that Ono Osaki was more interested in balance than enlightenment and he and the others in his group appear to want to use the teaching for liberating rather than material gain, even though it involves criminal activity.
              The Osaki 8 include:
              • Emerging Force
              • Birth of Sky
              • Awakening Earth
              • Life of Water
              • Life of Wind
              • Life of Ice
              • Master of Six Lives
              • Act of Ultimate Trust
              I went and saw this movie after the Mysterium discussions we had on this forum. I hoped it would help me think about them. /shrug
              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
              I think that 1 additional Reach can be to low on this - it's easily to take 1 Paradox dice and get the same result. Especially, as those practices would mostly be Wisdom sins - then no player would not play with them.

              Maybe 3 extra Reach will do fine, but do not sure how this imbalance system. We will see - I will have this idea in mind when looking over rules.
              Sure. I'm not saying my suggestion is finely honed or anything, especially before seeing the final rules. I'm just throwing out an idea for others to use.
              Last edited by Errol216; 04-29-2016, 11:29 PM.


              I call the Integrity-analogue the "subjective stat".
              An explanation how to use Social Manuevering.
              Guanxi Explanations: 1, 2, 3.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
                The two most common Yantras that give a +2 are High Speech and Rote Mudras. I don't really see a need for "extreme" Yantras to give more than a +3. I mean, a virgin sacrifice has got to be easier to come by than say a unicorn horn and that would only give a +3 at most.
                Yes, but we almost all assume it those "dark Yantras" will be Wisdom sins. As player, I would avoid at any cost using this kind Yantra if it would only by +1 bonus better than typical normal ones - convenience here is not enough to shatter characters Wisdom and go whole Left Hand Path on this. You do not go whole Black Magic path, if you can easily have the same mechanical effect with out it.

                Remember, character on spellcasting still can use Willpower points, so they get "free" +3 to roll. If you only need "want it hard enough" to get free +3, why to sacrifice virgins or rip humans hearts for the same bonus?

                Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
                There's even a legacy for that, though I think the ruling arcana is Time instead of Fate.
                I do not remember them - could you point me to this Legacy?
                Last edited by wyrdhamster; 04-30-2016, 01:30 AM.


                My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
                LGBT+ through Ages
                LGBT+ in CoD games

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                • #9
                  Which Arcana is best serve by mutilating your own flesh as a Yantra?


                  Remi. she/her. game designer.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by atamajakki View Post
                    Which Arcana is best serve by mutilating your own flesh as a Yantra?
                    Usually Life. Like a Whipping Boy for example. A BESM legacy. Not only is it a yantra for them but an oblation. So they get bonus dice and mana if they take an hour to do a spell. In combat obviously they would try to cut themselves or similar for the dice bonus.

                    They remind me of some types of Dreamspeakers and Verbena in MtAsc. The nasty powerful types.
                    Last edited by Kumiko; 04-30-2016, 02:02 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Errol216 View Post
                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_...015_film)#Plot


                      I went and saw this movie after the Mysterium discussions we had on this forum. I hoped it would help me think about them. /shrug

                      Sure. I'm not saying my suggestion is finely honed or anything, especially before seeing the final rules. I'm just throwing out an idea for others to use.
                      I understand what you are trying to go for but honestly if I'm going to go extreme I'd just go full left hand path or worse. Better bang for the buck in my opinion.

                      It's why praxis and inured spells along with rotes are seriously advantageous in 2e. You can have as many praxis spells as you want by the way. Also I'd assume any mage that can make rotes would do so and possibly put curses or requirements into them if they have the time. If for nothing else as trading chips.

                      I mean why not make a rote with a basic result for outsiders with other levels unlockable depending if you're in her order, path or legacy? Or bad stuff for mages, orders, legacies, paths you don't like. That was in the ToM and was supposed to be the advanced rules for magic. Or more exactly the complete rules.

                      You would want to be very careful with the latter option but it's totally possible to do given it's a rote you created.
                      Last edited by Kumiko; 04-30-2016, 02:26 AM.

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                      • #12
                        I would think the first thing you gain from human sacrifice is mana, 1ED let you harvest so much if you were the one to strike the killing blow. Besides Reach perhaps such a Yantra would provide free mana that could be used for additional gain. The obvious might be escaping Paradox, but some spells or added effects require the expenditure of mana.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 2ptTakrill View Post
                          I would think the first thing you gain from human sacrifice is mana, 1ED let you harvest so much if you were the one to strike the killing blow. Besides Reach perhaps such a Yantra would provide free mana that could be used for additional gain. The obvious might be escaping Paradox, but some spells or added effects require the expenditure of mana.
                          Possibly. Seriously you have to know pattern scouring and blood sacrifice will be in the game.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Kumiko View Post
                            I understand what you are trying to go for but honestly if I'm going to go extreme I'd just go full left hand path or worse. Better bang for the buck in my opinion.
                            I don't think you understand at all what I was saying. I thought the word "extreme" was a reference to "extreme sports".


                            I call the Integrity-analogue the "subjective stat".
                            An explanation how to use Social Manuevering.
                            Guanxi Explanations: 1, 2, 3.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Errol216 View Post
                              I don't think you understand at all what I was saying. I thought the word "extreme" was a reference to "extreme sports".
                              Wasn't directed at you but Wyrdhamster, sorry.

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