The Other Five Paths (2e)

[The Kings Raven]

I got board and wrote a full write up

I'm disappointed that The World card is taken, the first line would have been way cooler if I could use it.

[Dataweaver]

Nice! I intend to borrow liberally from this.

One thing: as perfect as it is to associate Traders with Gold, the Obrimos got there first. I'm not sure how to address that, because “the Gold Standard” and gold currency is very much in keeping with the Axios.

[The Kings Raven]

Good point about Obrimos and gold. Perhaps silver or a precious stone like ruby? Adamantine struck me as a metal whose symbolism is "useful" (armour and weapons are the first thing that come to mind) rather than "valuable".

BTW, a random question. Why did you replace the Astrologers? I love both Astrologers and Traders, but I admit that Astrologers feel more Magey to me.

[edit:] I saw your edit. I'd suggest reversing opportunity and connections. Terra Incognita are opportunities: They're full of marketable goods to harvest, or strange people to trade with. If you meat Boatmen (I still haven't found a better name) then they're often looking for a partner to help them make the big score - a very polite way of testing you Supernal style - but you might get a retired one who must be impressed before he'll shower you with gifts. Meanwhile Threads represent past deals made or broken: The place where Seers sold humans to the True Fae looks like a woven tapestry depicting the event with threads stretching off to Arcadia and wherever those seers live.

Full Understanding of Terra Incognita can provide a temporary Artefact, Resources, or something else like that. Threads lets you attach a new Sworn Oath to the tapestry, such as setting a hero at work to rescuing those people from Arcadia, or if you're evil adding a rival to the list of sold humans. This new oath isn't part of your spell tolerance but a modification to the old oath and that guy's spell tolerance, pledges, or whatever.

[Dataweaver]

According to Signs of Sorcery, Adamant is Perfected Glass. So yeah; it's not appropriate here, though I could see it for the Astrologers (who are still a thing; just not part of this Path). Diamond strikes me as a better option than Ruby.

I ended up switching from Astrologers to Traders because of the difference between Fate and Time: Astrology is, to a large extent, about exploring the future; the sorts of spells that deal with horoscopes and the like are found in Time, not Fate. So the Astrologer Path would be Time and Space, not Fate and Space. But that's two Gross Arcana, which doesn't fit the pattern that every other Path in this setup uses: one Subtle and one Gross.

As well, I see them as being Astrologers and Guides, where the Astrologers focus more on the Time aspect of the Path while the Guides focus more on the Space aspect. All of your Seven Seas stuff for the Traders strikes me as highly appropriate for the Guides, which is why my preference for the Traders and Advocates is to focus more on the Connections aspect of Space than the Locations stuff.

When I'm ready to publish, I intend to include the Astrologers in an Appendix for Path ideas that didn't quite fit but are too good to leave out entirely.

[The Kings Raven]

I think ruby works better than diamond for two reasons. Firstly a short/long word combo flows of tongue better IMO. Secondly it's a hot colour while diamond feels cold, so it fits the Arabian Nights / Simbad the Sailor theme.

I definitely think you have a point about astrology, real life astrology practices are very much at the intersection of fate/time: Predicting your future via knowing your fate. IMO it would do Fate/Time better than Acanthus, especially since 2E has gone towards planners rather than lucky fools. Witches should be Fate/Death if you ask me (double subtle, I know).

Now that said Time/Space/Fate makes a great combo for Astrologers and we just so happen to have Space/Fate here. I could see a Court Mage style legacy. "pre-emptive advocates" who say the best way to win a case is to do the right things before you reach the metaphorical court, and they like to attach themselves to kings and such. King is a risky business that can produce a lot of rewards to spread around, and big towers with telescope aren't cheap.

[Dataweaver]

Yeah; I've considered the possibility of a Time-based Astrologer Legacy for the Axios. And yeah, I agree with your thoughts concerning both Astrologers and Witches with respect to 2e's Acanthus — though my own preference for a Path of Witches would be Life and Fate rather than Death and Fate or Time and Fate. In the same way as the Astrologer-based Legacy mentioned above, I could see a Sophros Legacy that focuses on Fate and reflects the Witch archetype better than the Acanthus do.

[The Kings Raven]

When I think of witches "evil" is fairly central to the concept. Now obviously I don't think any path should be hard-coded as evil, but I think Death can honour the medieval devil-bride concept of a witch in a way Life cannot.

I agree that Life is very fitting too. The village wise woman who breaks (or creates) curses and brews herbal remedies fits into witch well. But the medieval stuff is older and thus more authentic IMO; plus CoD is technically about playing the monsters in a horror novel so a medieval bride-of-satan fits better than a village wise woman. That Legacy sounds like a good idea either way, and since it has all three it can cover both sides.

[Dataweaver]

As well, the imagery I chose for the Sophros came in large measure from the same sorts of sources that tend to inform the archetypal witch. This predates 2e, of course. In a similar vein, my view is that the Aretos capture the feel of the Alchemist far better than the Moros do.

[The Kings Raven]

On that I agree 100%. You can link death to change but it's really not typical to alchemical lore; a group rather stereotypically portrayed as seekers of immortality. Sophros cover the death is just part of the cycle better than Moros and Aretos are superior alchemists; linking Death in there should have been a Legacy.

[KaiserAfini]

How about the Watchtower of the Hermium Hammer for the Aretos ? Its a tool of craftsman (blacksmiths, carpenters, etc) and artisans (such as sculptors).

Aedes could be Symposiums (Theory) and Incubators (Practice), both named after things that could be found in the city of Utopia.

[Dataweaver]

I originally was going with the Copper Mallet, until I realized that copper is an essential ingredient of brass and thus is already covered by the Mæstros' Watchtower of Brass and Flame.

Hermium was originally associated with the Caelum (the Astrologers who have since been displaced by the Axios) in the form of the Hermium Mirror (pictured as a rotating pool of Perfected Mercury, forming a perfect parabolic surface that was intended to call to mind the telescope). And that illustrates the problem with Hermium and its less Perfected counterpart, Quicksilver or Mercury: it's the only one of the Seven Metals that's liquid at room temperature. Hard to associate that with anything that has form to it. As much as Hermium Hammer (or Hermium Mallet, which rolls off the tongue better) is nice in that both Hermium and Hammer/Mallet fit the Path individually (Hermium due to its prominence in alchemy as the “essence of metal”, and Hammer or Mallet due to being a solid representation of the artisan and the craftsman), they sadly don't go well when combined.

That said, Hermium that interacts with other Perfected Metals forms an Amalgam that takes on the properties of both; and an Amalgam is an excellent building material: often, an Amalgam is formed for the sole purpose of sharing one or both of the metals involved.

So maybe the Amalgam Mallet?

[KaiserAfini]

Actually, Hermium Mirror sounds perfect. The mirror reflects all possible inventions (Theory), the mage is the one who is able to isolate what he wants from the sea of possibly. They strike a mirror's surface, causing the thing on the other side to cross over and become real (Practice).

Gnosis is the frame of a pocket mirror. Just as there are infinite ideas, there are infinite mirror seas, shards of the Hermium Mirror. A mage is one who finds his shards with experience, composing his own mirror and thus shaping his role in the Utopia.

[Dataweaver]

Hmm… it's a bit more of a stretch than Amalgam Mallet; but it does roll off the tongue better. The Kings Raven, what do you think? (And don't worry about taking the Hermium Mirror away from the Caelum; I think that the Adamant Spyglass would be an even better fit for them.)

In the subject of the Perfected Materials, we have Hermium associated with the Aretos, Brontium associated with the Mæstros, and Kassiterium associated with the Kleos; as well, Perfected Gems in general are associated with the Axios, and Perfected Wood is associated with the Sophros. I would also associate Perfected Fire with the Mæstros.

In Signs of Sorcery, every Perfected Metal is associated with at least one Path; including the three Perfected Metals that aren't associated with any of the Watchtower symbols: Hermium is associated with the Acanthus and the Mastigos; Brontium is associated with the Thyrsus; and Kassiterium is associated with the Moros and the Thyrsus. Turning this around, every Path has one or two Perfected Metals associated with it: the Acanthus are associated with Lunargent and Hermium; the Mastigos are associated with Siderite and Hermium; there Moros are associated with Apeiron and Kassiterium; the Obrimos are associated with Orichalcum; and the Thyrsus are associated with Brontium and Kassiterium.

In a setting that uses these alternate Paths as replacements for the regular Paths, there should likewise be a full coverage of all of the Perfected Metals and all of the Paths. What we have so far:

Aretos: Hermium
Axios:
Kleos: Kassiterium
Mæstros: Brontium
Sophros:

The four metals not covered here are Orichalcum, Lunargent, Apeiron, and Siderite. Orichalcum is obvious: it should be associated with both the Aretos and the Axios. I like the idea of the Axios being associated with both gold and silver, the two “precious metals” in the set; so I'd put Lunargent as the Axios' second Perfected Metal. I'd be okay with Lunargent maybe being associated with one other Path (given its lunar association, I could see associating it with the “everything in cycles” Sophros). So:

Aretos: Hermium and Orichalcum
Axios: Orichalcum and Lunargent
Kleos: Kassiterium
Mæstros: Brontium
Sophros: Lunargent

And that leaves us with Apeiron and Siderite to distribute between Kleos, Mæstros, and Sophros. My gut instinct is to assign Siderite to the Mæstros and Apeiron to the Sophros:

Aretos: Hermium and Orichalcum
Axios: Orichalcum and Lunargent
Kleos: Kassiterium
Mæstros: Brontium, Siderite
Sophros: Lunargent, Apeiron

In terms of the “five elements” (Earth, Air, Fire, Water, and Quintessence), the Mæstros are Fire; I'm thinking that the Sophros should be Earth, the Axios Water, the Kleos Air, and the Aretos Quintessence.

[KaiserAfini]

Perhaps using the amalgams could be in order. Another option is to use new perfected materials. For example, Demetrium (perfected sap) for the Sophros, since that goddess tipped the scales of life and death to reflect the separation or reunion with her daughter.

On a side note, did the Aedes' names seem appropriate? If not, are you looking for names that reflect the Utopia aspect or the Meritocratic aspect ?

[Dataweaver]

First: the Sophros are already associated with wood, which already fits the life and death duality quite well.

Second: I had forgotten about the meritocratic aspect of the Aretos, and will need to review. Given the Axios focus on Merit, I would definitely prefer to skew the Aretos more toward Utopia than meritocracy. Symposiums and Incubators? Hmm…I'd prefer Aedes to come in complementary sets — maybe something like Schematics and Prototypes?