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[2E] Option - High Speech Variants

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  • [2E] Option - High Speech Variants

    I generally like changes of 2E Mage at all. However, I very much was downed that High Speech Forms were taken out of game - and I could not made character that shout 'Expelliarmus!', only some weird sounds of 'Glossolalia'.

    This should look like that...



    It's odd, when all rest of Tome of Mysteries 'spell factors' material clearly become Yantras mechanics. So this topic is to recreate those in 2E rules and pointing to logical implications of those on setting.

    Originally posted by Tome of Mysteries, p.92
    Accented: The Accented form is superimposed on normal speech. The mage speaks a chosen language with particular inflections so that it acts as an occult “carrier wave” for the hidden “code” of High Speech. Mages using this form appear to be speaking normal words in a strange accent. The cadence, tone and associated body language convey the magical import of the language. This makes it seem strangely accented (and often archaic) to Sleepers. Sleepers can repeat these speech patterns to repeat the “secret codes,” and other mages and beings who look for High Speech (such as ancient Artifacts, spirits and tomb guardians) will understand.

    The speech in the carrier language does not have the same meaning as that conveyed through High Speech accent, but Awakened witnesses can easily discern the secrets so conveyed. Mages who come from cultures that especially honor a living language prefer this form. It is sometimes called the Awakened version of a language (“Awakened Japanese,” for instance). Users often believe that it is the true form of High Speech.
    And this...

    Originally posted by Tome of Mysteries, p.92
    Poetic: Neither a matter of pronunciation or accent, Poetic High Speech is a matter of imagery and enigmas. The Poetic form is a vocabulary of images and symbols that can be expressed in any language, along with a meter that binds it into memorable performance. These signs and phrases evoke the necessary meanings in a mage’s mind, but not a Sleeper’s. Only mages have the necessary backgrounds to recognize a metaphor for the High Speech word for a magical operation. Furthermore, similar to Accented High Speech, Poetic High Speech recalls distinct rhythms and tones, binding the Poetic form into a cohesive form of magic and communication. Cultures with a powerful oral tradition tend to produce mages who use this form. They are more than willing to embrace the rhythmic conventions and the thousands of symbols that they must use.

    Even if an Awakened sorcerer is exposed to a form for the first time, she gains instant proficiency in it within seconds of exposure, as if she suddenly remembers a long life lived in a land where the form was the native tongue. Otherwise, regardless of form, all spoken High Speech conforms to the rules in Mage: The Awakening.
    And basic rule from Tome of Mysteries for those:
    Originally posted by Tome of Mysteries, p.91
    Regardless of culture or preference, every mage can use and understand every form.
    Taking in account that in 2E Peripheral Mage Sight is translating all the time High Speech as collection of Symbols in speech for Awakened, I'm still confused why we need to lost Accented and Poetic forms in first place.
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 05-29-2016, 12:18 AM.


    My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
    LGBT+ in CoD games

  • #2
    There's literally nothing saying it's been taken out and you are overreacting as usual. The original 1e book didn't mention them either.

    In fact, Dark Eras mentions them in passing on pg.79.


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    • #3
      if you want to yell spell names at people, it's a perfectly viable Shadow Name yantra. "My spells have names, and I shout them while casting" is a good persona tool.

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      • #4
        A good reason why High Speech doesn't have different forms now is because its actually a language. IIRC, Supernal critters are fluent speakers of it, and London is covered in runes that anyone with Mage Sight can read.

        And, to be fair, chanting in High Speech takes longer than a single shout like that - we're dealing with something beyond the realm of bastardized latin being called out with an attack.
        Last edited by MCN; 05-27-2016, 08:31 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by MCN View Post
          A good reason why High Speech doesn't have different forms now is because its actually a language. IIRC, Supernal critters are fluent speakers of it, and London is covered in runes that anyone with Mage Sight can read.
          It's explicitly not a language, it's glossolalia. Also, runes were a thing in 1e. That's what all those symbols covering the line are.


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          • #6
            Originally posted by Michael View Post
            It's explicitly not a language, it's glossolalia.
            It sounds as glossolalia to sleepers, but with mages "it is useable in spoken and written form as a crude form of communication". Page 90.

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            • #7
              In 1e, it wasn't explicitly a language. In 2e, we have beings that can and do use it as a language.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Justin Sane View Post
                It sounds as glossolalia to sleepers, but with mages "it is useable in spoken and written form as a crude form of communication". Page 90.
                Yeah, it can convey meaning, but it doesn't do so in the way a normal language does. The next setence: "Because it’s more the symbol of a language than a real language...". It's still sounds the same, it just makes sense on some intuitive level.

                In 2e, we have beings that can and do use it as a language.
                That was in 1e too.


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                  I generally like changes of 2E Mage at all. However, I very much was downed that High Speech Forms were taken out of game - and I could not made character that shout 'Expelliarmus!', only some weird sounds of 'Glossolalia'.
                  Umm... Shouting "Expelliarmus" is totally glossolalia. It's a made-up bunch of vowels and consonants that sounds kind of like a latinish word but doesn't actually have any linguistic meaning.

                  Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                  It's odd, when all rest of Tome of Mysteries 'spell factors' material clearly become Yantras mechanics. So this topic is to recreate those in 2E rules and pointing to logical implications of those on setting.

                  And this...

                  And basic rule from Tome of Mysteries for those:
                  Sounds like a cool Merit to me. Or even just describe your character's use of High Speech as a Yantra as sounding like a specific language, but with different inflections.

                  Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                  Taking in account that in 2E Peripheral Mage Sight is translating all the time High Speech as collection of Symbols in speech for Awakened, I'm still confused why we need to lost Accented and Poetic forms in first place.
                  I don't know as we did lose it. Verbal high speech can pretty much sound like anything.


                  Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                  • #10
                    I was confused on whole Glosolalia stuff, as I remembered from various horrors and fantasy movies as working like this...

                    ( Look from 0:20 for a half minute )


                    But with Accented and Poetic usage of 1E High Speech they work much more like classical languages of their origin spelling. Asian sorcerer using Awakened Japanese is really incanting in Japanese. Well, 'almost Japaneses', in same way as wizards in Harry Potter use 'almost Latin'.


                    My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
                    LGBT+ in CoD games

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                    • #11
                      You know in Stephen King's Insomnia, He had a pretty good idea of how it could work. Long story short. The characters have a talk with "higher" beings of Order and Chaos. but they didn't use 'words' or pharses or sentences. They used pictures emotions and idea. I'd imagen that High Speech is just like that. The words/characters mean nothing, its the symbolism behind them.

                      High Speech is just a tool to shape the symbolism into what you want. Its why Technobabble works. The science is mostly theoretical and impossible to obverse, but the intention behind it shapes what you want.

                      OHOH Wild idea, Phonic Alphabets are a tool of the lie. Back before Alphabets became widely used most people used pictures/pictograph to convey meanings and ideas. Sure we have more ideas, but now everything is more and more obscured.


                      Placeholder

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                      • #12
                        Wyrd, I think you're getting really hung up on the word glossolalia and missing the forest for the trees. Forget that word for a second. High Speech is the Supernal symbol of language. The speaker makes some noises and the listener understands the speaker's meaning, the specifics of those noises don't actually matter. If you want your High Speech to sound like weird Latin or weird Japanese, or whatever else, that's fine. Because the specific sounds the speaker makes don't actually matter.
                        Last edited by Charlaquin; 05-29-2016, 02:49 AM.


                        Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                          Wyrd, I think you're getting really hung up on the word glossolalia and missing the forest for the trees. Forget that word for a second. High Speech is the Supernal symbol of language. The speaker makes some noises and the listener understands the speaker's meaning, the specifics of those noises don't actually matter. If you want your High Speech to sound like weird Latin or weird Japanese, or whatever else, that's fine. Because the specific sounds the speaker makes don't actually matter.
                          I was not sure if this was RAI read of corebook. But it does have sense when Peripheral Mage Sight let you autotranslate it and higher levels of Mage Sight let observe Symbols. So I understand that High Speech is 'languages' of Symbols itself, and what exactly you say does not have any meaning?

                          Then saying things in Sleepers languages with weird pronunciation could work then - as saying things as poetry.


                          My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
                          LGBT+ in CoD games

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                          • #14
                            Sure, Mages would still auto-translate it and Sleepers would still remember it as gibbering though since High Speech is covered by Dissonance.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                              I was not sure if this was RAI read of corebook. But it does have sense when Peripheral Mage Sight let you autotranslate it and higher levels of Mage Sight let observe Symbols. So I understand that High Speech is 'languages' of Symbols itself, and what exactly you say does not have any meaning?
                              Close. I'd say a more useful way to think about it is that what you say has meaning, but that meaning isn't attached to the words. The platonic ideal behind language is simply that the speaker speaks, and the listener understands. The words themselves are immaterial. So you communicate symbolic meaning with the things you say, which can be gibberish, or faux-Latin, or what ever else you want. The effect is the same regardless: the words themselves have no meaning to the listener - it might sound like made-up words, or like a language they're not familiar with. But, the sounds still evoke the intended symbolic meaning.

                              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                              Then saying things in Sleepers languages with weird pronunciation could work then - as saying things as poetry.
                              I would certainly allow it.


                              Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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