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[2E Hack] More individualistic souls – or why souls are made of 5 Subtle Arcana

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  • [2E Hack] More individualistic souls – or why souls are made of 5 Subtle Arcana

    So I like 2E mechanics – but some assumptions on game world are a bit… off. I understand that souls in Mage should be more ‘generic’ to let Reapers omnomning them without loosening their direct personality when they lose/eat their own soul first – but somehow I think changes come a bit too much. And they are contradicting a bit 1E lore where in Banishers book there was Merit that let you remember yours souls past lives ( called Ancient Echo or something ). I understand that souls should not be THE all afterlife of mortals template, but in popculture they are at least part of what makes humans persons.

    In my idea souls are like basic ‘greatness’ impulses and recording devices, granting you ‘humanity’ – without them, humans are just intelligent apes. Souls are wanting to experience lives in Fallen World, they are basically drive for people to live and to be better in their existence. It’s divide roughly on 5 parts, each connected to the one Subtle Arcanum – even when Masters of all 5 cannot recreate souls without Archmastery. Those parts are:
    • Death – ‘Left overs’ parts of soul, connecting it to fallen human body. That’s why it’s left, it makes ghosts.
    • Fate - Particular Destiny of each soul. Yours soul's Karma.
    • Mind – Basic memories and pieces of Oneiros – they infuse with rest of previous lives of this soul. Connects person to humanity by Astral Realms. Have soul’s owner Daimon here.
    • Prime – Inner magic of particular soul. Part of ‘god-hood’ in each and every mortal. In mages it’s ‘Awakened’. In Sleepers, clouded by Abyss.
    • Spirit – Instincts and understanding of world around you – things that connects you to not humanity, but world at large. Think of it as connection to concepts behind Anima Mundi.
    That way Banishers book Merit can still be use if we have Mind and Spirit part – or that Destiny can be inherited from previous lives.
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 06-22-2016, 08:53 AM.


    My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
    LGBT+ in CoD games

  • #2
    I like this.

    I don't believe even Archmasters could create souls in 1E. Is that an intentional change?

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    • #3
      Interesting implication is for Reapers. As souls are so tightly needleworked and Reapers are dissecting those with their one Subtle Arcanum - they need to take soul as whole and try to digest particular Arcanum Pattern in it. But souls being so complex, Reapers destroy all others Patterns in it by process - ending in one time usage of each soul for one Subtle Arcanum and nothing more. It answers why, if soul is created with 5 Subtle Arcana, Reapers can take only 'chunks' of particular Arcana only.

      Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
      I don't believe even Archmasters could create souls in 1E. Is that an intentional change?
      I remember reading this somewhere, do know where now. Maybe 2E spoilers topics.
      Last edited by wyrdhamster; 06-22-2016, 09:21 AM.


      My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
      LGBT+ in CoD games

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      • #4
        I don't get it -- Isn't this the way it works anyway?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Justin Sane View Post
          I don't get it -- Isn't this the way it works anyway?
          From my reading of 2E corebook Souls are not having basic memories of previous lives and are not have parts of human instincts. Destiny of person also do not reside in soul, from what I know. If you can find quoted against those statements in 2E corebook - I will stand corrected.


          My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
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          • #6
            Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
            I don't believe even Archmasters could create souls in 1E.
            Archmastery of Death could create a replacement soul for someone who had lost theirs using an appropriate Quintessence, but creating a completely new human soul from whole cloth is a similar conspicuous absence to any meddling with the Promethean template.


            Resident Lore-Hound
            Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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            • #7
              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

              From my reading of 2E corebook Souls are not having basic memories of previous lives and are not have parts of human instincts. Destiny of person also do not reside in soul, from what I know. If you can find quoted against those statements in 2E corebook - I will stand corrected.
              Does 2e say they do or don't either way? Because unless it says they don't, I would assume it works the same way as it did in 1e and they just didn't have space to get into it.


              Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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              • #8
                In Mage, I seem to recall a bit of a blurb about a soul being a kind of fluid. Your body has a kind of "shape" that the soul fills, and the fluid soul conforms to the shape of each individual container. Its like a glass of water - each "glass" is different, but its all water filling them. I dont' remember where or when I read it, but that was my impression.

                Meanwhile, we have Demon which touches on souls a bit. In DtD, you want to throw out the soul so you can take over a person's connections and appearance - their place in the world. In this way, you throw out the water so you can pour the Primum into the body. That said, its arguable if the body comes with memories; you can gain technical knowledge through Legend, but no word on how much information of the person's life you can gain through Legend.
                Last edited by MCN; 06-22-2016, 01:09 PM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                  From my reading of 2E corebook Souls are not having basic memories of previous lives and are not have parts of human instincts. Destiny of person also do not reside in soul, from what I know. If you can find quoted against those statements in 2E corebook - I will stand corrected.
                  Mage anthology when Khonsu gets a replacement soul he's told to stay away from sweets because the original owner liked them and it would upset the process of the soul settling in. As such, while it's not explicitly called out in the 2e corebook it can be assumed that souls already function the way you're proposing here. It's a good way of laying it out, nicely done, but it's not new.

                  This doesn't change the inherent ability of souls to be switched between vessesls, etc. Though I suppose that if you lose your original soul and pick up a new one you would theoretically end up with a new set of "past lives".

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                  • #10
                    Most important quotes on souls from corebook - mark on bolded parts...

                    Originally posted by MtAw 2E, p.97
                    Matters of the Soul
                    The Awakened know what countless Sleeper religions have debated for millennia; the human soul exists, and with magic it can be removed, restored, measured, and destroyed. A person’s soul is not her mind, spirit, or the source of her morality. The role it plays in her psychological makeup is more akin to the supports in a building’s construction. Remove it, and the victim’s sense of self begins to collapse until she eventually reaches a state of shuffling near-catatonia.

                    Souls are insubstantial constructs, wholly invisible except to Death Sight when properly integrated into a person, and visible as vague humanoid auras in the Mage Sight of the five subtle Arcana when removed from a host.
                    Originally posted by MtAw 2E, p.98
                    The Origin of Souls
                    Souls bear one last Mystery even to the Awakened; mages can destroy and manipulate souls with the Arcana, but no mage has ever successfully created one. In theory, it would require the Making Practice with all five s
                    ubtle Arcana. Fifth-degree masters are vanishingly rare anyway, and all such luminaries to attempt soul creation have failed. Many mages believe that souls originate in the Supernal, and earthly magic can’t replicate the process.[/QUOTE]

                    And those adding to the topic...

                    Originally posted by MtAw 2E, p.238
                    Those Reapers are partially right: Souls are incredibly powerful. A mage can consume a soul to access any of the Subtle Arcana that relate to her victim. She may drink deep on the Fated good fortune of one victim, and the intelligence and wits of another unwilling donor’s Mind. She can also use a victim’s soul to bind his ghost to her power, gaining his ghost as a slave to her will. She can even drain his soul to extend her own lifespan.
                    Originally posted by MtAw 2E, p.245
                    Some believe that a ghost is part of the original soul, separated by traumatic death, and others hold that it contains the person’s actual personality: everything that can be defined as “them.” Therefore, ghosts must be laid to rest. The dead should be honored. As for the soul itself, Moros say that all souls once went to Stygia to be purified and reborn, but nobody knows if this still happens, or even if it was ever true.
                    Originally posted by MtAw 2E, p.246
                    Humans and most formerly human creatures do not have representative spirits. Some mages believe that the human “spirit” might be an aspect of the soul. Werewolves on the other hand are half-spirit, half-flesh in one being, and simply take both sides with them wherever they go.


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                    • #11
                      Okay, now what's your point?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post

                        Mage anthology when Khonsu gets a replacement soul he's told to stay away from sweets because the original owner liked them and it would upset the process of the soul settling in. As such, while it's not explicitly called out in the 2e corebook it can be assumed that souls already function the way you're proposing here. It's a good way of laying it out, nicely done, but it's not new.

                        This doesn't change the inherent ability of souls to be switched between vessesls, etc. Though I suppose that if you lose your original soul and pick up a new one you would theoretically end up with a new set of "past lives".

                        A major drama point for my current character is that she and her uncle got their souls stolen before she Awakened, and while someone, something replaced her soul with something, her uncle's soul is still missing. The drama here is that her uncle's soul is inside her all along. I wonder if I should make some of her habits something she adopted from her uncle...something small, like switching to his favorite brand of cigarettes, or starting to like some kind of alcohol above other one.
                        Last edited by WHW; 06-22-2016, 07:04 PM.

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                        • #13
                          I don't know about you, but all those citations seem to indicate that the Soul is indeed composed of all five subtle arcana.
                          The phrase "A person’s soul is not her mind, spirit, or the source of her morality. " seems to indicate that souls are not JUST mind, spirit, etc.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Incendax View Post
                            I don't know about you, but all those citations seem to indicate that the Soul is indeed composed of all five subtle arcana.
                            The phrase "A person’s soul is not her mind, spirit, or the source of her morality. " seems to indicate that souls are not JUST mind, spirit, etc.
                            Then why doesn't it say "A person’s soul is her mind, spirit, the source of her morality, and more. "

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                            • #15
                              In 2e, the Soul is the animating essence of You, but it's not the entirety of your being. It's like a metaphysical organ. You can get a transplant and you'll be just fine, even if there are weird unexplained things like new cravings or feeling things the original owner would have felt.

                              It also is composed of the five Subtle Arcana. Starting with Prime all the way through to Death. Worth noting is that even in 1e, Ancient Echoes couldn't really work the way it said it did because 1e had the same kind of "who knows what's going on with the Soul" treatment that 2e gets. In fact, I think 1e was even more explicit about it.

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