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reawakening an idia of Paradigms.

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  • reawakening an idia of Paradigms.

    My party played long enough for appearing of archmage-werewolf (not strictly impossible), possessed by stryx (it is mentioned in the Stryx' chronicles). We used 1st ed MtAw. But after publication 2ed MtAw, i wonted to change rules. 2nd mach beter then 1st. But, as in the first and in the second edition, I did not like the system of Wisdom.
    And the development of the plot prompted me how to fix this situation.

    In my interpretation of the world, God Machine administers magic. Strictly speaking, in my view of the creators of the towers, the Machine God and Exarchs creators - they are one and the same virtual adepts who stole larva god.
    And so. Characters do not know about it. Players can guess, but they still do not know what trick I gave them.
    The player characters are going to create a device that they are going to be called "the Tower of distortion." This tower is to disrupt the magic. God Machine, not understanding that this kind of garbage, decides to cut off the whole branch of reality itself.
    And here we have the cosmology of the universe degrade to such an idea of the old World of Darkness. However, without the divine trinity. And what else that would protect the universe.
    But it's the lyrics that you will most likely not interested.
    Sorry for the long introduction.

    The main thing is that I'm going to borrow from the old world of darkness. That is, the paradigm system.
    It is unlikely, then, that I was going to suggest, will be combined with the canonical interpretation. But, IMHO, it will have to be more logical than Wisdom system.
    What I really did not like the wisdom of the system: it is said that the magician can do, and what not. It limited the magician in his actions. But who said that killing someone, or to take the oath (which is also a magical effect) at the moment and the hour is not wise? Rigidly fixed rules destroy the mage's ability to truly understand and embrace the universe.
    In the old World of Darkness Mage cast spells based on their perceptions of the universe. Technocrats, the sons of ether, adepts Virtuality did different technological devices, Chorus worshiped God, Shamans talk with the spirits. That is, they all worked in their own paradigm, which is considered true.
    What we need to transpose the system? Firstly, the scale of Wisdom, we replace the scale of Paradigms. With the understanding that the paradigm drop to 0 sends a magician in solipsism, and increase to 10 shows the correspondence magician understanding of the universe the universe itself (sorry, my English is even worse than that of Google, but I hope you understand what I mean).
    And here we have an opportunity to return to the original idea of breaking Points.
    We ask questions to the player not to find out what is good and what is bad. But how the universe works and why it will break?
    breaking point on the murder still remains effective, as the magician, as a product of the universe, there is still a human being. And the universe, for some reason, thinks that people do not kill each other. But there is little nuance. The mage can no longer consider himself a human, or does not believe that the death of a person is something unnatural. Accordingly, we can not make a killing an Automatic breaking point.
    Hence, I propose the following questions for breaking points.
    1. What in the universe will always work? breaking point happens when the character sees that this "something" will break.
    2. What never happens in the universe? Accordingly, the "it" happens.
    3. Why do people die? By hook or by crook. The global issue, the aim is to establish how people should not die on the proposal of the magician and press on it.
    4. Why magician so special? Maybe this question is inspired by my party, where one character vice was The Pride and on this occasion he often catches megalomania. The real question is boils down to why this HightBlood Constantine became a magician, not a John Doe from next door. Accordingly, the breaking point comes when the magician understands that his awakening was "coincidence" that he got his power "by mistake". Or when the magician sees that someone (not necessarily another magician - in a world of darkness employ many different supernatural creatures) got their power unjustly (outside the paradigm in which lives the magician).
    5. What should magician change first? Magician pleased with this world or not. If it all happy, he must strive to maintain the order (respectively, catch breaking point when the order fails to keep). If he is dissatisfied with the world, the mage will suffer when it catches up with what he disliked most in the world, or when he missed (voluntarily or not - does not matter) the opportunity to fix it.
    Also, different points can be tied to the tower, or orders.

    The mechanical effects.
    Firstly, the level of paradigm determines the effective value of the Gnosis. When throwing a spell magician can use only the amount of Gnosis Dice, which does not exceed its paradigms. In order to use all its Gnosis is necessary to take additional Rich.
    Paradigm also helps fight Paradox. Well, as Wisdom, but, my mother was a woman, in my opinion much more logical, when the view of the world helps you deal with your mistakes, rather than when it makes representations about good and bad.
    Also, the paradigm can be tied to the price of Arcana.

    Degeneration rall. Base: 0-2 - -2 dice; 3-4 - -1 dice, 5-6 - 0 dice; 7-8 - +1 dice; 9-10 - +2 dice. Player can improve a roll, putting the anused XP at stake 1 dice per 1 XP (up to 5 XP), or spending WP. While suffering chance roll character can change Paradigm (and answer differently on questions). If roll fail, then character lost his experience (SUFFER, HUMUS WORM! but we must recognize that the magician has virtually no such roll, which he could not influence. Maybe that's why Wisdom was not touched?).

    Look like that's it. Thank you so much. Your suggestions and ideas?
    Last edited by OsuNeko; 08-03-2016, 04:40 AM.

  • #2
    Wisdom has been talked to death in other threads and on top of that it's clear you don't understand Wisdom in 2e anyway. You can go looking through those if you want a Wisdom discussion. There's also been a guide made to convert Ascension to Awakening (Don't know where it is I've never bothered to look at it) that you can go over for ideas. Good luck.

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    • #3
      Mmm, then ofcose i'll read all of them.
      Ofcose i don't andestend Wisdom concept. If so i dont post.
      But considering mass murder as wiseless is not right. It' bad, not wiseless, imho.
      My point there is not to discust about Wisdom or converting ascention to awekening, but use some ideas from old books
      Last edited by OsuNeko; 08-02-2016, 06:59 PM.

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      • #4
        So... Resently I put my hands on Promethean the Created 2e. And i finaly anderstend what i wont to see in my MtAw game.

        Why i dislike Wisdom.
        Wisdom is difinetly is punish mechanism what's born in need for straitjacket for fishmalk players.
        First. Character can restore Mana from sacrificing mortal soul.
        Second. Character can restrain Paradox by rolling Wisdom.
        Thirdly. Act of Hubris chart says what Charcter can do for wisdom loss. Simpler, what character should not do if he does not want to lose Wisdom. For example, Character should not kill some one. Especially for mana.
        Fourth. Player can lose Character when he reaches zero Wisdom.
        From the first paragraph it follows, there is need for restrain for players which have tendensy for "optimisation" (ie manchkins). And what do we get? Paragraph 2: if Character have high Wisdom he can fight Paradox... If not - In this case, ze will receive a paradoxical Condition in best case. Paragraph 3: if player start doing anal carnival zi will be punished. Paragraph 4: if losing of defens ability not anought for colming down a player character then it's will be destroyed.
        Is wisdom justified by lore? I don think so. There is no clear defination of Wisdom. There only description of what Wisdom can do, whats it's work for (magick control) and what happens to characters with low wisdom. The property of Wisdom to restrain paradox is not explained. If it is, then it's not wisdom (as it is) but mage skill to controll his own magick. Why if i an asshole i should be an asshand and asshead altogether?

        Why i need Paradigm and why i don't wont to play in MtAs
        Recently, my old ST gathered a party for MtAs. And then I realized what I (as a player and as a ST) lacked in my games: it's mage own magick flavor - tradition, paradigm and diversity of Foci. Your own methods to create magick, philosophical conflict with characters with a different opinion. It is Paradigm system. And MtAw lack of it. But in MtAs magick system is not a system. Also personaly i dislike metaplot of MtAs (however, like MtAw). But MtAs' is more.

        What I need is Ascension.
        And there i realized what i wont to see in game but did not seen in any game what i played. Ascension. There no system for that. In MtAs it's oversimplified - you "just" (if ST approve) rise dots. But the question is not only that. The amount of XP needed for the Ascension of the Mage is simply colossal.If you do not employ any home rules, it becomes possible to ascend only if you start play as an archmage. Paradoxically, but neither the Awakening nor the Ascension are the main themes during the game. Because first occurs before start and second never occurs at all. Or, again, only on ST decision. However, the ST has no clues on how to do this correctly.
        Obsession should represent eternal search of Transcendent Truth... And what's next? Character can rise Arcane, Gnosis and Wisdom. But there is no border conditions. And even if one of the above shows us those, the question again rests on an inordinate amount of XP.
        And there is Promethean's Pilgrimage.

        What show playtest of system proposed above
        Technicaly it's work. But it's never played. Proposed questions help to discribe Character's Paradigm (and pretty well, you have to admit), but Breaking Points did not happen as often as I would like. Mostly managed to play the fifth breaking point, because it's the only wich meaning is directed to action. Once played 2/4 question: breaking point was caused by one character to another.


        I suggest using a traits like Paradigm/Golden Road. First represent not skill but an anderstendig of Transcedent Truth and help fight Paradox. Second represent progression on Ascension. They both use the same numeric value, so they can be considered as the same trait.
        As in Promethean the Created 2e there three types of milestones can occur on Golden Road: minor, major and superlative. First grand only 1 Arcane Beats. Second - 1 Arcane XP. Third - increase progression on Golden Road and grand 1 Arcane XP. They work as well as those listed in Promethean the Created 2e.
        But Mage not an promethean. Zi need another lists of Instinctive, prescribed and universal milestones.

        I do not abolish the question written above. However, their applicability is worse, although they help to describe the paradigm.
        1. Tram-Pararam I have troubles...
        2. What is the mage willing to sacrifice for the Ascension?
        3. What was the Mage's Awakening? If you take the setting as it is, then the question can be asked as follows: What led the mage to Awakening?
        4. What keep Mage on Golden Road? Mage is powerful, mage is nearly invincible. Why should he want to Ascend?
        5. What should Mage change first? That qustion good as it is. The character must strive to change the world or maintain Status Quo.

        Prescruved misetones can be set by Order. Let's coll them "Masterong" - Kind of activity aimed on hermeneutic cognition of Truth.
        For Adamant Arrow it can be Mastering of Martial Arts (in all it's kind). When character successfully demonstrates zir tactical and/or phisical superiority zi take milestone.
        For Silver Leder it can be Mastering of Royalty. Character should proof his Leadership through all means to acquire milestone.
        For Guardian of Veil it can be Mastering of Non-existence. A milestone occurs when the character’s deeds cannot be traced.
        And I do not know how to divide Mastering of Questing between the Mysterium and the Free Assembly...

        And there my opinion on universal milestones
        1. To make a mortal a SleepWalker through mundane action.
        2. To Force Awakening.
        3. Achive omniscience (ie first dots of all Arcanes). Omnipotence too gluttonous, and omniprecence too spesific (It's easiest for Mestigos to get).
        4. Become a witness of "Awakening" of any sort (Embrace for Vampire, First Change for Werewolves etc). Can be played many times.
        5. Become a witness of Ascension.
        6. Not so shure about this: become Master of Arcane.
        7. Any ideas?

        Should there be an Breaking Point? I don't thik so. As is customary in science (It is also an Enlightenment method), you do not know what Truth is, but you know exactly what it is not. From here, I can assume, disappointment in what thie believed in is also the road to Truth.
        Last edited by OsuNeko; 03-21-2019, 04:15 PM.

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        • #5
          Look at The Code rules detailed in Hunter: the Vigil. It lets you slowly change sins on your morality but at a cost

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          • #6
            Originally posted by OsuNeko View Post
            Is wisdom justified by lore? I don think so. There is no clear defination of Wisdom. There only description of what Wisdom can do, whats it's work for (magick control) and what happens to characters with low wisdom. The property of Wisdom to restrain paradox is not explained. If it is, then it's not wisdom (as it is) but mage skill to controll his own magick. Why if i an asshole i should be an asshand and asshead altogether?
            I do want to point out that Wisdom in second edition has more to do with acting deliberately and to avoid rash decisions. For example, premeditated murder is actually better for your Wisdom than impassioned killing. Controlling your own behaviour leads to you being better at controlling your own magic.
            Unfortunately, being an asshole is very much over represented in the Acts of Hubris list meaning it's practically still a partial morality trait instead of pure Wisdom that allows assholes to do what they want as long as they have themselves under control. Hopefully Signs of Sorcery will amend the (practically abridged) Wisdom rules in the core book.


            Bloodline: The Stygians
            Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
            Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Tessie View Post
              I do want to point out that Wisdom in second edition has more to do with acting deliberately and to avoid rash decisions. For example, premeditated murder is actually better for your Wisdom than impassioned killing. Controlling your own behaviour leads to you being better at controlling your own magic.
              And we cat out passionate mages. Although a passionate asshole (Jocker from DC) still need skill to be able to portray (ie a skillful player can be forgiven for Hubris).
              Originally posted by Tessie View Post
              Hopefully Signs of Sorcery will amend the (practically abridged) Wisdom rules in the core book.
              I also hope so, but my attention slide from Paradox restraining to Ascension. I aslo hope there will be rules for Ascension, designed for non exorbitant amounts of XP but on narrative and event achievements (as in Promethean the Created 2e).
              Last edited by OsuNeko; 03-22-2019, 02:25 AM.

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              • #8
                Ascenion is end game, it requires nothing but that the story goes there. Not even all Mages are on the path to Ascension, and even if they were they have no idea how to get there because it's highly individual.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
                  Ascenion is end game, it requires nothing but that the story goes there.
                  As like The New Dawn in Promethian. But the Pilgrimage go throughout the game as Red Thread. The main thing here is not the Goal, but the Path.
                  Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
                  Not even all Mages are on the path to Ascension
                  Not at all: as i can understend (i have Hubris to be proud in my english skills), Ascension paragraph (Appendix 2, p. 312, MtAw 2e) says that the Ascension is desired by most mages. The few that do not seek Ascension are really few.

                  I came up with new ideas on paradigms. We discussed the previous ideas with the party, and, in general, agreed that the Ascension must be individual (it cannot be imposed by anyone).
                  Therefore, I abolish the question's functions that lie beyond the description of the paradigm.
                  The obsession mechanics are fairly versatile. Obsession resolution ends with Enlightenment (in essence, the same milestones). Enlightenment has three degrees: Minor, Major and Superlative.
                  When Obsession end with Minor Enlightenment, character take 1 Arcane Beat AND can take that Obsession right away once more.
                  When Obsession end with Major Enlightenment, character take 1 Arcane XP BUT can't take that Obsession raght away. After compliting another Obsession character can return to that Obsession once more.
                  When Obsesssion end with Superlative Enlightenment, character take 1 Arcane XP, rise Paradigm (Wisdom/Golden Road - you name it) trait BUT can not take that Obsession never again. Ze learned everything ze could in that direction.
                  Whenever character rise Paradigm (Wisdom/Golden Road) ze mast take The Lesson.
                  Basically, Lesson is fuel for Breaking Points. But what's it means? When character rise zer Paradigm ze learn some thing about Universe and think it's should work as ze (neutral pronouns are still not very clear to me) think. When it's does not character go through Breaking Point. How is it work? As usual, a character must witness or do something to cause a Breaking Point. In a sense, it is desirable that the Lesson contained some kind of a taboo, OCD, Ban or Bane.
                  When a character take a Lesson, he also gets the opportunity to use the appropriate type of Yantra. Character can use that type of Yantra as far as ze upheld Lesson.
                  As such, two types of Lessons can be distinguished: personal and external. Personal Lessons are those described above: character take them when rise Paradigm. They are of utmost importance to the character. A character may opt out of a Personal Lesson. However, in this case, he can never return to it.
                  Character take external Lesson when ze starts to consider himself part of a certain group. Thus, we can distinguish two and half groups of external Lessons: Order's, Legacy's and Common (Wisdom's).
                  If character does not want to uphold Legacy's or Order's Lesson ze cannot participate in this groups. When character join a group (Order/Legacy) ze voluntarily learn their Lessons.
                  With Common Lessons all the more difficult. Common Lessons are in the same role as Humanity for Vampires. The essence of the Сommon Lessons is to preserve the Humanity of a mage. When Breaking Point occure on Common Lesson character may refuse to lose the Paradigm's dot at the cost of zis own humanity. As vampires mage get Bane, Ban or Deformity (something that changes the look and the Nimbus of the.mage). By doing so, the character will never again receive a Breaking Point at the same Lesson. Thus, the character, continuing his ascent, will become less and less humane and more and more alien. Those, who do so, become "The Mad". For reference for Common Lessons ST can use typical Breaking Points for Wisdom or Integrity (or even Humanity... Clarity? On ST calling).

                  As example for Personal Lesson, when character complete Obsession "Become immortal" (Obsessions are extremely good as a starting point.) ze take Lesson "For immortality thie should bath in human blood every week". According to the rules, this is far from necessary ... However, the character will think that IS necessary.
                  Or, for Obsession "find thie calling" Lesson can become "upheld The Codex" (ie list of rules and responsibilities typical for that calling).
                  As example for Order's and Legacy's Lesson, in Adamnantine Arrow the following Lessons may be imposed:
                  Lesson of Curage - character cannot escape from the battlefield.
                  Lesson of Challenge - character cannot refuse challenge (duel or trial).

                  Dice pool for Breaking points can be calculated as half the difference between 10 and the current dots of the Paradigm. ST can apply corresponding penalties to the roll if it's not Personal Lesson.

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