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Space 2, does anyone do without it?

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    started a topic Space 2, does anyone do without it?

    Space 2, does anyone do without it?

    This post may be odd, but I have noticed that pretty much every player character in our games either starts with, or rapidly acquires Space at 2 dots. They may almost never use it aside from its sympathetic range attainment and scrying, but every player (including me) feels that this ability is de rigueur for any serious mage. Any arcanum is of incredible use, but this one has gotten the reputation for being indispensable. For what I can only call aesthetic reasons, it bugs me to see this arcanum so favored (even though I admit my characters snap it up as well).

    My question is, do other players find this typical in their games? Each of our players is constantly finding themselves in a situation wherein that particular skill set is needed - how many players don't use space and don't particularly feel crippled by the lack?

  • Johnny Awesome
    replied
    I haven't started my 2e game yet, but my 1e game ran for 50 sessions and the Obrimos didn't bother getting Space. The Thyrsus only acquired it in our 40th session or so. The other two characters (Mastigos and Acanthus) made pretty good use of it for the whole chronicle.

    I don't think it's strictly necessary and I would think long and hard if I were a player about getting Space 2 instead of becoming a Master in one of my ruling Arcana.

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  • Axelgear
    replied
    That's because Time is a surprisingly narrow focus. Time only does one thing: Be Time. It is a broad purview in effect, but ultimately the only thing Time manipulates is one thing that only really exists in one form anywhere and everywhere. Matter, meanwhile, is diverse. Varied. Matter might all be atoms, but those atoms form into gases, liquids, solids; Matter can be crystals, metals, loose soil, floaty air, boiling magma, flowing water, and so much more.

    Time is, in a sense, remarkably one-note; it's just so big of a note that it's hard to notice. Matter is a symphony and it's hard to play a symphony with one instrument, y'know?

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  • nofather
    replied
    We had our first session last week and I thought it was funny how some yantra sort of cover everything for some arcana. Like with Time, you could use a watch or hourglass for most, though I don't think all, of the spells. With Matter, you would need considerably more to do the wide variety of specific effects. A carbon cube wouldn't be as useful as Time's clock.

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  • Elfive
    replied
    Voodoo dolls seem an obvious example of a low-tier Sympathy yantra.

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  • lnodiv
    replied
    Originally posted by HardcoreHannes View Post
    Also note: the letter itself would never count as a sympathetic yantra, no matter its connection to the subject. The sympathetic yantra needs to represent the subject you are casting on. It therefore needs some kind of symbolism of the subject. If you find a hair or some skin cells of the subject on the letter, that would be able to be a sympathetic yantra.
    Or just write their sympathetic name on a piece of paper.
    Or make a drawing of them.

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  • HardcoreHannes
    replied
    Also note: the letter itself would never count as a sympathetic yantra, no matter its connection to the subject. The sympathetic yantra needs to represent the subject you are casting on. It therefore needs some kind of symbolism of the subject. If you find a hair or some skin cells of the subject on the letter, that would be able to be a sympathetic yantra.

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  • Tessie
    replied
    Material, representional and symbolic sympathetic yantras are all possible options when casting sympathetically. This includes physical parts of the subject as well as drawings. Page 122 has a list.

    My first reaction was that Scry would be cancelled, but I don't think so. Sensory range spells don't end just because the subject leaves sensory range so sympathetically cast spells shouldn't either. The spell exists independently of what connection the mage has to the subject. Also, since the subject is subject to the mage's spell, the mage gains a Weak sympathetic connection to the subject anyway.

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  • Space Butler
    replied
    Thank you. So can the Sympathy Yantra used for the scry spell be a symbolic sympathy i.e. just the subject's name or a drawing of the subject?

    If she were to cast the scry spell with advanced duration (and have the spell last a week), can she end the Borrow Threads spell without affecting the Scry spell?

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  • Tessie
    replied
    Originally posted by Space Butler View Post
    I'm having a bit of a hard time understanding the mechanics of scrying and sympathetic range. If a mage with Gnosis 2, Space 3 mage that has a item with medium sympathetic strength (a letter written by the subject) and wants to scry them, then is this how things would work?

    Starting dice pool of 5. Yantras are the item with sympathy (the letter) and a High Speech mantra. The item gives no bonus, the High Speech gives +2 dice. The mage uses two reach: one for fast spell casting and one for advanced duration. This doesn't go over her free limit of 2 reach for this practice. The sympathetic withstand is 2, so the potency must be 3 for the spell to do anything, so the mage takes a dice penalty of -4 to increase the potency by 2. The final dice pool is 3 (5+2-4), and if successful, the mage can view the subject for a scene.

    Am I missing anything? Do you need to use the reach for sensory casting for this spell? Do you need to pay one Mana as well?
    The Mage has to have a sympathetic connection to the subject. Just having an object with a sympathetic connection is not enough. Luckily Borrow Threads can help with that.

    Borrow Threads (Space ••)
    Two free Reaches for Instant Casting and Advanced Duration.
    Withstand is 2 so Potency will be increased by two steps for a -4 dice penalty.
    High Speech is used as a Yantra for +2 dice.
    5+2-4 = 3 dice

    If successful the Mage now has the same sympathy for up to a week but will probably just cancel Borrow Threads when done scrying.

    Scry (Space ••)
    Two free Reaches for Instant Casting and Advanced Duration. One additional Reach will have to be spent for Sensory Range as it's a prerequisite for using Sympathetic Range.
    Withstand is 3 (2 from the Medium Connection plus 1 if the Sympathetic Name isn't used as a Yantra) so Potency will be increased by three steps for a -6 dice penalty.
    High Speech is used as a Yantra for +2 dice. A depiction of the subject is used as a sympathetic Yantra. (The letter has a sympathetic connection, but it isn't a representation of the subject so it can't be used as a sympathetic Yantra.)
    1 Mana is spent for Sympathetic Range.
    5+2-6 = 1 die
    1 Paradox die from the extra Reach

    Sympathetic casting is quite useful, but it's difficult to really utilize until Gnosis 3 when you can use an additional Yantra. You also want spells you often cast sympathetically as Rotes so you get more Reaches and Mudra as a Yantra. (Mastigos are blessed in that they get both Space and Mind since it's possible to boost skills with Mind 3 meaning they have an easier time getting +5 from Mudras.)

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  • Mrmdubois
    replied
    Yes, you're hypothetical Mage doesn't have a personal Sympathetic connection to his target. He could use Borrow Threads from his Sympathetic object though I'd rule that makes that object defunct as a Sympathetic Yantra, not sure about others.

    You're also forgetting the automatic Primary Factors given by arcana.

    Yes, you need Reach on Sensory Range and to pay a mana.
    Last edited by Mrmdubois; 11-10-2016, 06:40 PM.

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  • Space Butler
    replied
    I'm having a bit of a hard time understanding the mechanics of scrying and sympathetic range. If a mage with Gnosis 2, Space 3 mage that has a item with medium sympathetic strength (a letter written by the subject) and wants to scry them, then is this how things would work?

    Starting dice pool of 5. Yantras are the item with sympathy (the letter) and a High Speech mantra. The item gives no bonus, the High Speech gives +2 dice. The mage uses two reach: one for fast spell casting and one for advanced duration. This doesn't go over her free limit of 2 reach for this practice. The sympathetic withstand is 2, so the potency must be 3 for the spell to do anything, so the mage takes a dice penalty of -4 to increase the potency by 2. The final dice pool is 3 (5+2-4), and if successful, the mage can view the subject for a scene.

    Am I missing anything? Do you need to use the reach for sensory casting for this spell? Do you need to pay one Mana as well?

    Leave a comment:


  • HardcoreHannes
    replied
    That would make it even easier to have a single Space 4 Mage doing the scrying for the group than having everybody have to do it themself.

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  • Elfive
    replied
    I think your end of the scrying window is just visible to everyone naturally.

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  • HardcoreHannes
    replied
    Back to topic: While Space 2 is for sure useful, I would like to point out, that you actually lose a lot if you go for it. Scrying is probably a must have in a group, but depending on group size, one or two Mages with it should be enough. It's not explicitely stated, but I would let you include additional percievers of the scrying window with a reach or increased spell factors.
    For casting trough sympathatic connections you need to remind yourself, that this isn't so easy (withstand, yantra, having a sympathetic connection). For at least the sympathetic connection to the target you have to get in close to the target at least once or do some really good reasearch. With only Space 2 you got little option for increasing your chances of sympathetic spells through strengthening connections and forth.
    In comparison, you could use the same amout of experience to get your primary arcanums 4th and 5th dot (at storytells discression of course), which adds immensly more powerful options to your arsenal and just ask somebody else in the group to give you a scrying window of your subject and cast via remote casting.

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