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does the Duat "still" exist?

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  • #31
    Not all; Lower Depth doesn't mean "I dunno, but isn't it cool?" - it means "not in the Fallen Worlds, and consumes some aspect of reality to sustain itself". Mummies sacrificing the world's Sekhem in the form of relics to the shan'iatu is, in Awakened terms, like Infernally-tainted spirits eating human vice in service of the maejlin or the hounds of anwwn eating patterns. That Sekhem isn't an Arcanum doesn't matter.

    The world of the CofD is full of odd dimensions and worlds, that mages explore with gusto when they can and study secondhand and from afar when they can't. "Lower Depth" is a classification for *some* of them, and Duat qualifies.


    Dave Brookshaw

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    • #32
      I wonder if mages has some sort of "flow chart" which they use to catalog every new dimension they meet according to its criteria... heck, they might even call it the "Standard Model" :P


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      • #33
        Originally posted by atamajakki View Post
        I have two things in my mind and a gap between them that you might be able to solve: how do you think the symbols of the Supernal relate to cosmic Seba?
        It's very interesting to make that connection and does make me a little giddy, along with the idea that A'aru is possibly Supernal. However, I think with this one I just have to throw in the towel and be completely honest.

        I really, really like Mummy, and I don't want to have, nagging in the back of my head, knowledge that its unique cosmology is overriden by Mage's.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by reseru View Post
          I really, really like Mummy, and I don't want to have, nagging in the back of my head, knowledge that its unique cosmology is overriden by Mage's.
          Mage's cosmology is more or less descriptive; it doesn't override anything, it just attempts to categorize everything. If they don't have a word for something they will make one up, if there are a bunch of things that share traits they will put them all in the same bucket, but the things are still just what they are. A rabbit isn't any less a rabbit for being called a mammal in someone's ultimately arbitrary categorization scheme.

          Even the Supernal is just a bunch of descriptions in the end. Mages categorize them one way, but that doesn't mean they *have* to be categorized that way, or that the way that Mages experience the Supernal is the only way it can be experienced.
          Last edited by Eolirin; 02-15-2017, 09:15 AM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by reseru View Post
            It's very interesting to make that connection and does make me a little giddy, along with the idea that A'aru is possibly Supernal. However, I think with this one I just have to throw in the towel and be completely honest.

            I really, really like Mummy, and I don't want to have, nagging in the back of my head, knowledge that its unique cosmology is overriden by Mage's.
            I definitely feel this way too. Changeling has its own unique myhology that doesn't worry about playing nice with Mage and does just fine, so I'm hoping this material is presented as in-universe opinion more than cosmological fact.


            Remi. she/her. game designer.

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            • #36
              Indeed. I'm very inclined to think that while, yes, Duat is a Lower Depth, A'aru/Supernal is only an in-character explanation but is actually separate

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
                The world of the CofD is full of odd dimensions and worlds, that mages explore with gusto when they can and study secondhand and from afar when they can't. "Lower Depth" is a classification for *some* of them, and Duat qualifies.
                If you have any other broad category labels for these dimensions you'd like to share, I would be interested in hearing them. Wizard taxonomy is fun.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by reseru View Post
                  It's very interesting to make that connection and does make me a little giddy, along with the idea that A'aru is possibly Supernal. However, I think with this one I just have to throw in the towel and be completely honest.

                  I really, really like Mummy, and I don't want to have, nagging in the back of my head, knowledge that its unique cosmology is overriden by Mage's.
                  I feel like some of these connections are in-character and not out of character. I mean, I don't think the Mummy writers are filing its weird cosmology and fate and gods and magic in a tidy niche within Mage's universe. But, I love the idea that Awakened and Arisen might occasionally compare notes. Anyway, I really look forward to seeing how the Mutapa Empire handles this. Given that both Mage and Mummy writers (who've written for both) are involved, I bet it will be handled carefully, and with maximum emphasis on generating cool plots hooks for use at the table.
                  Last edited by Octavo; 02-15-2017, 02:21 PM.


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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by reseru View Post
                    It's very interesting to make that connection and does make me a little giddy, along with the idea that A'aru is possibly Supernal. However, I think with this one I just have to throw in the towel and be completely honest.

                    I really, really like Mummy, and I don't want to have, nagging in the back of my head, knowledge that its unique cosmology is overriden by Mage's.
                    This was, to a small extent my own reaction. I think for some at least the nervousness comes that while Duat as a Lower Depth isn't a big deal is because it's purely descriptive where as A'aru being say a part of a Supernal Realm has a feeling to some people as far more something that is intimately tied to Mage in a way the concept of Lower Depths are not.


                    Not returning to the forums, just stopping in for a moment.

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                    • #40
                      My only beef is that the supernal isn't barren or lonely, the way a'aru has been described. Honestly, colliding with supernal entities, having your flesh flayed from you by the power of the realm, having to struggle every step, facing metaphysical challenges, and only surviving because the mummy cannot die? That almost sounds like the supernal is Duat... or at least, Duat is the time when a mummy struggles with that ecstatic wind like force, and a'aru is when they finally master themselves and their own mind to form a dead zone around themselves to find peace.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by TyrannicalRabbit View Post
                        This was, to a small extent my own reaction. I think for some at least the nervousness comes that while Duat as a Lower Depth isn't a big deal is because it's purely descriptive where as A'aru being say a part of a Supernal Realm has a feeling to some people as far more something that is intimately tied to Mage in a way the concept of Lower Depths are not.
                        I feel it's worth pointing out that "the transcendent plane from which mages draw their power, which many Awakened spend much of their lives ultimately pursuing total residence within, is identified by the Arisen of the era with the transcendent plane in which souls who have surpassed the Law of Suffering may reside and above which the Scroll of Ages is written in starlight" is a lot less trivializing than "the Arisen's version of a rewarding afterlife can be reached by an obscure portal and might as well be the literal surface of a distant moon for all the cosmic significance it's afforded — a curiosity mentioned in the same breath as a weird gateway to the distortionary wall between the worlds of spirit and flesh."

                        Regardless of the factuality of this cross-identification, it's not the Arcadia Problem, where we have two places with shared terminology are markedly different in how accessible they are — it's WoD's Abyss Problem, where, as Stephen Lea Sheppard once put it, the primary alternative explanation to the places being related is that they're four separate infinite expanses of sense-blanking nothingness.

                        The worst it does for the Mage Supremacy Problem at a glance is that it makes it harder to draw a clear line between the descriptive interface of the Supernal and the Scroll of Ages, which would have been something groups would need to address anyway on account of how spellcasting works.


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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                          I feel it's worth pointing out that "the transcendent plane from which mages draw their power, which many Awakened spend much of their lives ultimately pursuing total residence within, is identified by the Arisen of the era with the transcendent plane in which souls who have surpassed the Law of Suffering may reside and above which the Scroll of Ages is written in starlight" is a lot less trivializing than "the Arisen's version of a rewarding afterlife can be reached by an obscure portal and might as well be the literal surface of a distant moon for all the cosmic significance it's afforded — a curiosity mentioned in the same breath as a weird gateway to the distortionary wall between the worlds of spirit and flesh."

                          Regardless of the factuality of this cross-identification, it's not the Arcadia Problem, where we have two places with shared terminology are markedly different in how accessible they are — it's WoD's Abyss Problem, where, as Stephen Lea Sheppard once put it, the primary alternative explanation to the places being related is that they're four separate infinite expanses of sense-blanking nothingness.

                          The worst it does for the Mage Supremacy Problem at a glance is that it makes it harder to draw a clear line between the descriptive interface of the Supernal and the Scroll of Ages, which would have been something groups would need to address anyway on account of how spellcasting works.
                          I'm just going to wait until I see the Dark Eras Companion before deciding what the nature of hesitancy on those possibilities with A'aru are from the fanbase, thanks.


                          Not returning to the forums, just stopping in for a moment.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by TyrannicalRabbit View Post

                            I'm just going to wait until I see the Dark Eras Companion before deciding what the nature of hesitancy on those possibilities with A'aru are from the fanbase, thanks.
                            I don't see how the two most arrogant supernaturals having a pissing match over which of their grand celestial cosmologies bits is bigger than the other is a problem.

                            Like, the Arisen do not speculate that Aa'ru is part of the Supernal-they tell mages that the Supernal is A'aru and then more or less expect mages to adjust their understanding to fall in line with their cosmological truths. Mages may not do the exact opposite in kind, because mages are not their fanbase, but they definitely look at A'aru, squint, and go. "uh....I don't think you fully get what we're talking about."

                            This is not a supremacy issue either way-this is where the mysteries of Chronicles collide.


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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                              I don't see how the two most arrogant supernaturals having a pissing match over which of their grand celestial cosmologies bits is bigger than the other is a problem.

                              Like, the Arisen do not speculate that Aa'ru is part of the Supernal-they tell mages that the Supernal is A'aru and then more or less expect mages to adjust their understanding to fall in line with their cosmological truths. Mages may not do the exact opposite in kind, because mages are not their fanbase, but they definitely look at A'aru, squint, and go. "uh....I don't think you fully get what we're talking about."

                              This is not a supremacy issue either way-this is where the mysteries of Chronicles collide.
                              Or it's a small side comment on a throwaway hint that DaveB was so kind to give us that vaguely references something we will get more information about once the actual book launches and I responded to one posters minor miss givings over this small bit of information by commenting on some of the reasons why some people might feel less comfortable with certain information than others. Generally when the response I see is "OMG STAWP talking about Mage primacy!" I'm pretty much not going to take you seriously.


                              Not returning to the forums, just stopping in for a moment.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by TyrannicalRabbit View Post
                                Generally when the response I see is "OMG STAWP talking about Mage primacy!" I'm pretty much not going to take you seriously.
                                If you're going to take it seriously enough to draft a reply, you might do better to understand why we're all kind of sick of the thing that this line of discussion generally reeks of instead of concluding that an exhausted response to a sentiment of "having two different gamelines equate their respective Heavens with each other in the course of in-character speculative cosmology means subordinating the one that is not Mage to Mage because Mage is Mage and Mage has a nasty reputation among the fandom based on overzealous modeling and broad-scope power level" is unfounded.


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