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  • #46
    Can I just say that the fact that the Kher-Minu have returned in a glorious new form is fucking amazing? I was pretty surprised to see a reimagining of these Amenti as a Minor Guild... but I don’t care, it’s just cool to see another nod to M:TR again xD

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Paradim View Post
      Alright, digging into the Judges now and.... Yikes, they're kinda scary.

      But Arem-Abfu has me wondering, the Judge that rules over transgressions against the cosmos.... What does It think of the Rite of Return?
      The Judges wouldn't be the shadows of the Law of Suffering if they didn't embody catch-22s now and then.

      Damned if you do, damned if you don't.


      Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
      The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
      Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
        The Judges wouldn't be the shadows of the Law of Suffering if they didn't embody catch-22s now and then.

        Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

        Law of Suffering..?

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Paradim View Post


          Law of Suffering..?
          Short version: The Law of Suffering is one the two main cosmological forces/arguments that defines Mummy's take on reality, being that life exists, moves, and progresses and is thus enslaved to suffering, that fundamental nature of reality is suffering. The Judges are the shadows of this principle.

          Expanded point: The other principle at work and in contest to the Law of Suffering is Will, that life exists, moves, progresses and is thus liberated by will, that the fundamental nature of reality is determined by will. Sutek, the 43rd child* of Atum and Khepera, is Will, and basically because he bled over everything, everything possesses Will.

          The contest of these principles alongside the need to give tribute to Ammut for holding reality in her maw and not just chomping down basically goes to set up the cosmological contest that's at play in Mummy, with a wrench included in the Shan'iatu being assholes.

          For more, read Dreams of Avarice, or take a peak at the Totally Serious and Surprisingly Sober Summary of Iremite Mythology and History.

          *45th-ish, actually, but no one cares about Aridity and Liquidity and the other possible children prior to the Judges and Sutek aren't clarified.
          Last edited by ArcaneArts; 11-07-2019, 12:24 AM.


          Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
          Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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          • #50
            Alrighty, thanks. ^.^

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            • #51
              ....ok, who wants Nebha to just ...set fire to the internet? Anyone else?


              ....

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              • #52
                Originally posted by BrilliantRain View Post
                ....ok, who wants Nebha to just ...set fire to the internet? Anyone else?
                The Scribes might object...

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by BrilliantRain View Post
                  ....ok, who wants Nebha to just ...set fire to the internet? Anyone else?
                  I’m sure various other supernatural factions would take offence. Starting with whatever angels use it as Infrastructure and ending with [REDACTED]. But it would be fun chronicle to see them try! XD

                  And to be clear, that redaction is NOT for Mummy.


                  Freelancer (He/His Pronouns): CofD - Dark Eras 2, Kith and Kin, Mummy 2e, Oak Ash and Thorn; Scion - Mysteries of the World

                  CofD booklists: Beast I Changeling | Demon | Deviant (TBA) | Geist l Hunter l Mage | Mummy | Promethean | Vampire | Werewolf (WIP)

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by BrilliantRain View Post
                    However, I wanted to ask about cosmology for a bit. Is Duat the same place that all ghosts go?
                    Duat is a "place" where souls go. A ghost is a different beast.

                    Does that mean the Judges are just a type of Geist?
                    No, and also that's not how geists work. A geist is a ghost that has drunk from the Rivers of Death, the first dead or buried at a site of deathly resonance to rise with its Avernian Gate, or a necromancer whose deathly power in life has translated through death into a broken mask and detachment from the singular concerns of Anchors. The Judges are cosmic forces that salt the earth and turn seas to blood with their scrutiny.

                    Or is this one of those underworlds, like the Inferno?
                    It is, in practice, closest to the Inferno as far as the cosmology goes, though there was a circle that needed squared in the cosmology between what the Inferno was and what the label that referred to it wound up also referring to. See anon.

                    ....or is Duat a Supernal Realm and the Judges are Supernal spirits?
                    For all that the trials of Duat notionally bear a strong resemblance to the confrontation with the self that characterizes a journey to Pandemonium, the Judges are an outside force rather than a manifestation of your weaknesses demanding you to master and claim them.

                    Or is it an entirely different area and I need to just expand my cosmology?
                    So Mage: Summoners came out some time ago, and it talked about creatures from the Lower Depths, alien creatures from realities even more divorced from Truth than our world of time and space and concrete phenomena; some of their denizens, when they're in a talkative mood, claim to pre-date the rise of ordered reality; the never-born chthonians that inhabited the Underworld before human ghosts arrived were speculated to know the deep roads to these realms in much the same vein as they were theorized to be Fallen Supernal beings, but that was a different matter.

                    Here's the thing: at least as far as 1e ChroD cosmology went, the Lower Depths were the Inferno, that many-faceted Hell made from human imagination, invented structure, and the willing forfeiture of the bits of one's soul that committing dark and transgressive acts damaged. The Lower Depths that Summoners (and later, Left-Hand Path) discussed had little to do with the Great Unclean Ones of sin and demonology approached in Inferno and alluded to in Imperial Mysteries' akathartoi and the Elder Demons of Hunter: the Vigil.

                    Whisperers, Diaboli, and Dominions were flexible, but there was only so far you could stretch "demons are distinguished from other spirits by their capacity for empathy and their self-serving flexibility in relation to their defining sinful concepts" toward the end of things like "the Seers of the Throne found a thing in the desert that doesn't possess awareness but will reflexively consume the human sense of self" and "chthonians are at their most conversational when they've recently eaten a ghost and are so alien that reading their mind courts madness."

                    The simple solution, of course, was to make the call that the Inferno was a subset of the Lower Depths, and very probably one of the closest ones to the Fallen World; demons may not be the only hungry creatures from the edges of reality warming themselves with stolen aspects, but you'll seldom need to seek out thin places in the world or wait for inauspicious confluences out in the wastes to find one. The category is still poorly-understood, but if a creature comes from a place you can't physically go to and return from, and it takes something from you or turns you into a way of taking something from the world, it's a fair bet that mages will call its home part of the Lower Depths.

                    Where this gets tricky is with the beings the Arisen serve. Remember how Summoners says some things from the Lower Depths claim to have come before reality? The Judges are, if not such beings, then directly descended from them. Remember how the Inferno feeds on sin? The Judges are, in First Edition Mummy, the primordial beings who defined sins to condemn human souls to the Devourer's maw by their commission because Sutek objected to their starting offer of consigning a tenth of the universe to oblivion outright. Remember how chthonians knew the roads to Hell but might have fallen from Heaven? The Judges share a cosmological wavelength with an encounterable being (Anpu) who reads as "all/none of the above" when queried with magic as to whether he's a demon, a god, or a creature of death.

                    tl;dr It's weird, but if you want to fit it into your maps of the cosmology, it's an empty place on the border of reality that most people can't go to safely, and its main agents harvest an aspect of the world in a way that tangibly removes it from consideration until and unless it's re-deployed elsewhere. The fact that souls can go here is distinct from the fact that Deathless magic is powerful and necromantically charged and may truck with ghosts or match the scope of Awakened sorcery.

                    (It's a lot more straightforward in Geist, where the Underworld is a naturally-extant part of phenomenal cosmology that has been heavily broken by the debatably-extant Chthonic Gods and their servants, as well as the ghost-eating chthonians that hunt the Rivers and care not for the worshippers that sometimes follow them. The Great Below is a fair bit wetter than Duat is usually characterized.)
                    Last edited by Satchel; 11-07-2019, 02:14 AM.


                    Resident Lore-Hound
                    Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                      (It's a lot more straightforward in Geist, where the Underworld is a naturally-extant part of phenomenal cosmology that has been heavily broken by the debatably-extant Chthonic Gods and their servants, as well as the ghost-eating chthonians that hunt the Rivers and care not for the worshippers that sometimes follow them. The Great Below is a fair bit wetter than Duat is usually characterized.)
                      Not meaning to take away from your point... One of the mini-fictions available in the preview so far gives a description of an Arisen's first journey into Duat, and a river actually gets mentioned....

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                      • #56
                        There's a river in Duat as well, but I wouldn't call its waters cool or refreshing.


                        Matthew Dawkins
                        In-House Developer for Onyx Path Publishing


                        Website: https://www.matthewdawkins.com
                        Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/matthewdawkins

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                          The Judges wouldn't be the shadows of the Law of Suffering if they didn't embody catch-22s now and then.

                          Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
                          Or to put it in shorter terms:

                          The Judges of Death condemn you for your sin. The point of doing this is not to prevent people from sinning. It is because they want reasons to condemn you.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Paradim View Post

                            Not meaning to take away from your point... One of the mini-fictions available in the preview so far gives a description of an Arisen's first journey into Duat, and a river actually gets mentioned....
                            There was a river on the road to Duat in First Edition as well. And of course, the central civilization upon which Mummy is built upon also has a river. Rivers are Kind of Important, BUT

                            A river does not a desert unmake.


                            Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                            Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Second Chances View Post



                              And to be clear, that redaction is NOT for Mummy.
                              Motherfucker...

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Paradim View Post
                                Not meaning to take away from your point... One of the mini-fictions available in the preview so far gives a description of an Arisen's first journey into Duat, and a river actually gets mentioned....
                                The most enduring parts of the Underworld's topography are streams of loss and tears forming Rivers of mystery and death forming an Ocean of fragments and dissolution. There is an Admiral who commands Ferrymen who crew vessels across the Rivers. There are port towns with fishing nets and fugu dishes. The most dangerous creatures there in general resemble marine life that track ectoplasm behind them when they cross the land. The passage of time has a direct impact on the inhabitants because if they can't or won't spend their point of Essence then they get absorbed into the walls a la the more reluctant crew members of PotC's Flying Dutchman.

                                The Great Below is wetter than the protean wasteland of Arisen vision quests. It is a drowning place.


                                Resident Lore-Hound
                                Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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