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  • Eh. There are things I don't like about this edition. Things I feel that have been done poorly. But I can't put this in that category. We would have gotten a book on Duat and the Judges in 1e but we didn't get the stretch goal. So this isn't exactly much of a deviation.


    “As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” noun: empathy the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

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    • Originally posted by Korogra View Post
      And all of this could be imbued with a vision or spiritual visitation by the Judge during a Descent should one uphold/fail to uphold the values of their Decree or their Judge in the face of their current mission in the sunlit world ,
      We had that in First Edition in the form of Descent rolls. Making the Judges double as qashmallim in this way would be painfully dull.

      so no good sir, I do not find the process of playing around in Duat while the other players mess with each other’s standing while in afterlife to be an acceptable justification for this section. It is a tourist attraction disguised as a moral, spiritual, and narrative threshold.
      The most "touristy" part of Duat is literally the first layer where all the demons tend to escape from, where the Trial is "get to the next gate, possibly overcoming literal demons along the way" as a prelude to a negotiatory set of scenes where your character is supposed to struggle with their more metaphorical demons as part of the recurring stress-test of their immortal soul.

      The typical context in which this minigame is going to be happening is at the end of a story. You had to die and not have other pressing business in the sunlit lands to get here. Nothing about this is tourism when people can literally summon fiends from Duat without even needing to be a sorcerer — this edition deals with Duat as a marginally more accessible place even without the Trials or the loss of the Storyteller's Wall. They're a tourist attraction in the sense that your Keeper's garden being a place you can technically go to is a tourist attraction in Changeling.

      But seeing as your Judge can literally come to your house and kick your door in now, the idea of having a whole section of the game where you prostrate yourself before your Judge in Duat is redundant and frankly comical.
      Your Judge needs to possess a mortal and warp reality around themselves in blood-marked response to a violation of the Law to grant you direct audience with one of its avatars and that still isn't going to obliterate you the way a trial on the edge of reality can. There's stakes and prerequisites involved that you don't get from the Trials' direct incentives to consign relics to Duat regardless of what they do or are.
      Last edited by Satchel; 12-03-2019, 10:01 PM.


      Resident Lore-Hound
      Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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      • It hasn't gone so far as to openly say, but I can honestly say I can't imagine a game I wouldn't implement it in, so I actually have meaningful headcanon now.

        The Underworld is totally Ammut's gullet.


        Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
        The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
        Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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        • Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
          It hasn't gone so far as to openly say, but I can honestly say I can't imagine a game I wouldn't implement it in, so I actually have meaningful headcanon now.

          The Underworld is totally Ammut's gullet.
          Bet it gets really, really freaking annoying to her when the Arisen go in and try to cross a river:

          "Ah, hell, Ashfoot's playing traffic cop again. Welp, time for another month of allergies..."

          As for Duat, my full-throated defense of it indicates how much I love it as a stage for climatic psychodrama. I'm thinking of ways for other gamelines to visit it for Contagion Chronicles and other crossovers, and how one proves that one is worth being guided back out by Anpu - or failing that, how to not be completely or eternally yoked to a Judge, lest you start trying to negotiate with someone who traditionally starts off with an offer of euthanasia before she starts dealing honestly with you.


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          • Maybe I am missing something but I see no benefit to making Duat anything other then its own realm. To me making it the interior body of a god or primordial would reduce the very interesting and potential adventurous nature of it. Duat is something that is as real as any other place under or above or sideways to the world for all that its existence is as special as it is due to the nature of the Rite of Return and its time twisting and reality effecting nature.

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            • Originally posted by LordHeru View Post
              Maybe I am missing something but I see no benefit to making Duat anything other then its own realm.
              Nobody in the above posts is talking about Duat.
              Last edited by Satchel; 12-04-2019, 01:20 AM.


              Resident Lore-Hound
              Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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              • Oh, okay, fine then. I saw underworld and figured they meant Duat since that is what is mummy related.

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                • Tangentially, on the matter of crossover cosmology and Weird Time Shit…

                  Well, I think we now have a solid guess at where all that water came from.
                  Last edited by Satchel; 12-04-2019, 02:35 AM.


                  Resident Lore-Hound
                  Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                  • Eh myth being what is it is, a realm being both that AND the spiritual gullet of a nasty incarnation of entropy isn't entirely out of order.


                    “As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” noun: empathy the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by LordHeru View Post
                      While I do like Duat I do also have to say the idea of playing out the Trials every time a Descent happens is not what I would consider fun.
                      Same. That's a minimum of seven scenes (my sessions are like 5 scenes) focused on one character. There are a lot of cool concepts that look like they're going to utterly derail things.

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                      • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                        We had that in First Edition in the form of Descent rolls. Making the Judges double as qashmallim in this way would be painfully dull.

                        The most "touristy" part of Duat is literally the first layer where all the demons tend to escape from, where the Trial is "get to the next gate, possibly overcoming literal demons along the way" as a prelude to a negotiatory set of scenes where your character is supposed to struggle with their more metaphorical demons as part of the recurring stress-test of their immortal soul.

                        The typical context in which this minigame is going to be happening is at the end of a story. You had to die and not have other pressing business in the sunlit lands to get here. Nothing about this is tourism when people can literally summon fiends from Duat without even needing to be a sorcerer — this edition deals with Duat as a marginally more accessible place even without the Trials or the loss of the Storyteller's Wall. They're a tourist attraction in the sense that your Keeper's garden being a place you can technically go to is a tourist attraction in Changeling.

                        Your Judge needs to possess a mortal and warp reality around themselves in blood-marked response to a violation of the Law to grant you direct audience with one of its avatars and that still isn't going to obliterate you the way a trial on the edge of reality can. There's stakes and prerequisites involved that you don't get from the Trials' direct incentives to consign relics to Duat regardless of what they do or are.[/FONT]
                        The Descent rolls can convey that, yes. My interpretation of a Descent roll that it was the metaphysical equivalent of your parent yelling at you for leaving a mess in the kitchen after you ate without cleaning it up, unpleasant and can incentivize you to maybe clean it up, but it’s not what I would describe as a punishment rather than a warning/ potential game of chance.

                        Funnily enough, the demon infested soul ghetto that is the first layer was actually interesting to me because it felt more of a ... I suppose fair way to challenge a Mummy rather than letting player two write out and dictate how a several hour character focused minigame plays out to me. It can be okay as an endgame event, but I don’t think everyone wants to go through it in rapid succession, or multiple times in a single story if multiple mummies Descend at different times

                        And you are right about that, but the way the preview worded it has it sound like manifestation seems easy enough that several judges can find the time to fuck with and fight over a single mummy for petty shits and giggles
                        Last edited by Korogra; 12-04-2019, 05:03 AM.

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                        • Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                          Anyway, Bunyip, you mentioned to help me to understand what is the meaning of temporal death versus permanent death to mummies, and what could exactly completely destroy one for all eternity (unless the only way is "failing so much that even your Judge will just throw you to Ammut's maw&quot, and I redeem that offer. Did I got it more or less right, or is there something that I have missed?
                          Will do this weekend. Operating on just phone at the moment.


                          Writer. Developer. World of Darkness | Chronicles of Darkness | The Trinity Continuum

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                          • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                            Tangentially, on the matter of crossover cosmology and Weird Time Shit…

                            Well, I think we now have a solid guess at where all that water came from.
                            I am tired and may have missed it. Please clarify, as it sounds interesting.


                            Thoughts ripple out, birthing others

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                            • Originally posted by Korogra View Post

                              I’ve learned from letting players play the geister of their fellow players
                              And therein lies the problem. A geist is not a Shadow. A geist is fundamentally loyal to their partner unless something has gone drastically wrong. A geist does not need another player, just "my geist feels that", and that's it.

                              When you are designing a Trial of Duat, you are designing something that's fundamentally meant to hurt the person it is focused on; I would argue it's entirely thematic for a Trial to be made fundamentally impossible because a Judge was an ass that day. But really, if a player is designing a Trial that seems geared towards bullying the other player, that's when the ST needs to intervene; the issue is not the concept of the Trial, the issue is that it's being used as a tool of That Guy; That Guy will use any tool to make everyone else as miserable as he is.

                              Really, in my experience, it's the exact opposite problem, and design things too easy; that's part of why there's a sidebar about entering Duat as a team.


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                              • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                                Tangentially, on the matter of crossover cosmology and Weird Time Shit…

                                Well, I think we now have a solid guess at where all that water came from.
                                I do love me a Green Grass, Running Waters reference that is also an accurate answer.


                                Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                                The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                                Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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