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Iremite Takes on Other Gamelines and their Souls

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  • Iremite Takes on Other Gamelines and their Souls

    I've always been fascinated by the Arisen take on how the soul works, especially given how strength in a Pillar is just as much a personality trait as it is a supernatural capability. So, that led into my headcanon that mummies see other night-folk as having major modifications to how their souls work, which defines the magic system they use (the New Pharaoh who runs the faction of the Sworn I like to roleplay naturally thinks all mystical fuels usable by something recognizable as people are different gradations of Sekhem, but she's not especially pushy about it, being capable of remembering that vessels are literally born of human culture and memory giving Sekhem a form; the very fact that others interpret how magic works in a coherent way makes their arts with it valid, pure, unalloyed Sekhem is kinda useless).

    So, I decided to open this thread for ideas on how a mummy would diagnose how the other games have altered souls.

    To start off with my favorite, I'd say Irem would describe the Lost as twice-named; once as humans, then having their Ren hit with occult whiteout and with a fae name overlaid. When they reclaim personal agency, the old name devours the new one, and so the changeling develops an extremely powerful Pillar that the rest of their identity starts to orbit around, as shown by how Clarity is a measurement of how well the Changeling can process information about the world and themselves and becoming Fate's co-workers. This is why their magic is based in agreements, because it treats occult forces as also having names that they can invoke for their sorcery, and invoke aspects of their patrons' true names by modifying circumstances to ape elements that make them respond without recompense - Loopholes.



  • #2
    Seeing as four of the primary splats of their respective gamelines explictly don't even have souls, this should be interesting.
    The list for the unintiated goes as follows:
    • Promethean; kind of the whole point is to make one and become human. Obvious parallels between the pilgrimage milestones and the pillar trials of Duat could be made, suggesting that the Created are literally forging their pillars from Sekhem via Azoth.)
    • The Unchained of Demon the Descent; they don't even have real names, just psuedonyms and only really maintain connections to the world via 'shell identities'. The buy and sell Ren to use as shells but have no real use for a soul.
    • The Begotten (Beasts) and the Bound (including Sin-Eaters) no longer have the souls of their human life, instead having another entity working as a substitute. Admittedly, there is a case for the Horror and the Geist emulating different Pillars of the soul.
    Bonus round; Uratha (werewolves) implictly lack souls, their half spirit nature precluding them the needs thereof.


    Thoughts ripple out, birthing others

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    • #3
      Originally posted by FallenEco View Post
      Bonus round; Uratha (werewolves) implictly lack souls, their half spirit nature precluding them the needs thereof.
      Werewolf 2e core straight up says that werewolves have souls, and that they can be removed. The upcoming Nameless and Accursed for Mage is spoilered to say that werewolves have "something" that is analogous to a soul.


      Bloodline: The Stygians
      Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
      Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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      • #4
        Nameless and Accursed's run down of all the main games and their souls is in the context of "can a Tremere eat it?", which might not be the same as a mummy's view of "does it have a soul". Especially as mummies are one of the things (iirc) that a Tremere *can't* eat, and no one's accusing the Arisen of not having them.


        Dave Brookshaw

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        • #5
          The spoiler I'm talking about is when you broke it down in more detail on the official Discord. In short:
          Mortals/baselines, mages, mummies* and deviants** have souls.
          Vampires and werewolves have "something" that isn't exactly a soul from the perspective of mages/Tremere.
          Prometheans, demons, bound*** (sin-eaters) and beasts*** don't have souls.
          *Mummies' souls are protected from Tremere due to them being the property of the Judges.
          **Deviants' souls are very broken and liable to mess you up if you try to manipulate them.
          ***Bound and beasts have their souls replaced with ephemeral entities.

          Don't recall what you wrote about changelings, but what I known from Changeling their souls are literally shredded in the process of becoming one. Not sure whether they're deemed to not have souls or have something in place of souls.


          Bloodline: The Stygians
          Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
          Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Tessie View Post
            The spoiler I'm talking about is when you broke it down in more detail on the official Discord. In short:
            Mortals/baselines, mages, mummies* and deviants** have souls.
            Vampires and werewolves have "something" that isn't exactly a soul from the perspective of mages/Tremere.
            Prometheans, demons, bound*** (sin-eaters) and beasts*** don't have souls.
            *Mummies' souls are protected from Tremere due to them being the property of the Judges.
            **Deviants' souls are very broken and liable to mess you up if you try to manipulate them.
            ***Bound and beasts have their souls replaced with ephemeral entities.

            Don't recall what you wrote about changelings, but what I known from Changeling their souls are literally shredded in the process of becoming one. Not sure whether they're deemed to not have souls or have something in place of souls.
            Um. Would you have an invite for that official discord lying around? Or is it a "for backers/VIPS only" kind of thing?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Patricl_Gleason View Post
              Um. Would you have an invite for that official discord lying around? Or is it a "for backers/VIPS only" kind of thing?
              One day link.

              Post:


              Turns out I didn't remember changelings because they weren't mentioned.


              Bloodline: The Stygians
              Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
              Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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              • #8
                Much obliged

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by FallenEco View Post
                  Promethean; kind of the whole point is to make one and become human. Obvious parallels between the pilgrimage milestones and the pillar trials of Duat could be made, suggesting that the Created are literally forging their pillars from Sekhem via Azoth.)
                  While Prometheans don't have souls as such, I believe their Divine Fire is strongly flavoured by Ka. This particular Pillar represents agency, which manifest both as Qashmallim and as the Pilgrimage, depending on circumstances. Ka also constitutes an animating force, which emulates bodily functions when channeled through dead or inanimate matter. Within human beings Ka manifests as body heat, which is in keeping with Azoth's firey symbolism. No only that, according to Mummy/Mage crossover, Ka corresponds to Prime and Forces Arcana - those representing fire and obsession.

                  I also have this old post, followed by valuable critique, concerning Begotten and their Horrors:
                  Link
                  Last edited by Teatime; 12-09-2019, 02:10 PM.


                  ~

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                  • #10
                    I really wonder how the Ferals (from Changing Breeds) would be described in Arisen eyes. As far as I remember from that story in Beast's anthology, the Ferals lack proper souls, having instead Nagual- or "animal soul". I'm not sure that such a soul could even be described in the terms that the Arisen use- like, they could described the Wolf Essence of the Uratha as having powerful Ab, which overshadows the other Pillars. I like the concept of the Changeling being "twice Named", and as such having a much stronger Ren than a proper soul- heck, the Gentry are practically Names which have Names of their own, and as such the concept of an entangled agglomeration of Ren could be terrifying in the eyes of the Arisen. Others, like Sin Eaters and Beasts, would only have single Pillars instead of a soul- Sheut drives the Bound alone, and the Begotten have their Ba devouring the rest of their Pillars.

                    Other beings could have more interesting forms of "soul"- Deviants have a broken soul, which may mean that the "glue" which should have kept their Pillars together became cracked and torn by the Divergence. I like to think about Vampires as having "decomposed souls", or more exactly, the "entropy" of soul, with their Pillars becoming rotten without being able to move on, and that rot takes the form of the Beast. Prometheans, on the other hand, have the "raw components" of souls- they are not well refined or bound, so either their Pillars are found in constant imbalance or that they haven't even formed yet, taking a much more primordial form. Demons are soulless beings which steal the Ren and Ba of others. Mages are the most familiar to the Arisen in terms of souls, as they both a more "potent" soul than mortals, but from different directions- the Arisen have their soul's foundations being reinforced, while the Awakened have their soul more refined towards unity. The Arisen strength the components, while mages focus on the whole.

                    And then we have some really, really weird things- like the Ferals (from Changing Breeds). They lack any human soul, and instead have an "animal soul", a Nagual. What would an Arisen even think about something like that? As only human souls could be Judged and given to Ammut due to the Law of Suffering, how humans with animal soul could even fit the Arisen cosmology?

                    At least, those are my two cents on the subject.
                    Last edited by LostLight; 12-09-2019, 04:49 PM.


                    My Homebrew Signature

                    "And all our knowledge is, Ourselves to know"- An Essay on Man

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                    • #11
                      Hm. I'm thinking that they feel Bound have a second Sheut, shared with their geists, that serves as a transplant to support their decayed Ab, which is the reason for their cheerfully morbid dispositions and identification with the dead and kicking over the quick. Beyond, well, a dead and kicking individual serving as their in-brain nurse.

                      Also, the Lucifuge strike me as a group that is going to drop some Arisen jaws as a concept, given how the fiends are not alive, but I say they feel the cambions' power comes from sharing part of their ancestor's Ka and/or Ren, as a vessel of divinely mandated suffering - with their natural ability to command demons coming from having free will, and thus able to invoke the Judges' jurisdiction as being not fundamentally bound by the Law of Suffering.


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                      • #12
                        I'm going to hazard a guess that while not as open to the idea as others, the Arisen are probably not perfectly resistant the concept that there are powers beyond the gods and the universe as they understand it.


                        Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                        The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                        Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                          I'm going to hazard a guess that while not as open to the idea as others, the Arisen are probably not perfectly resistant the concept that there are powers beyond the gods and the universe as they understand it.
                          Especially considering that the Judges really don't like the Arisen asking questions and thinking too much about subjects unrelated to their immediate interests. Still, as it may affect how the Arisen would interact with others during a crossover event, it is a fun subject to theorize about- and even if they won't do it, maybe their cultists (or Immortals) would do so.

                          Another example for something which definitely exists outside of the Arisen's scope and mythology would be Scelesti and anything else which crawled its way from the Abyss- the "spawn of Ki En Gir" sounds like a proper way that mummies would call such entities, and I won't be surprised to see the Judges actually encouraging their servants to hunt down those mages and abominations, with their soul being touched by what could be best described as "foreign Pillars which should not exist".


                          My Homebrew Signature

                          "And all our knowledge is, Ourselves to know"- An Essay on Man

                          I now blog in here

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                            Especially considering that the Judges really don't like the Arisen asking questions and thinking too much about subjects unrelated to their immediate interests. Still, as it may affect how the Arisen would interact with others during a crossover event, it is a fun subject to theorize about- and even if they won't do it, maybe their cultists (or Immortals) would do so.

                            Another example for something which definitely exists outside of the Arisen's scope and mythology would be Scelesti and anything else which crawled its way from the Abyss- the "spawn of Ki En Gir" sounds like a proper way that mummies would call such entities, and I won't be surprised to see the Judges actually encouraging their servants to hunt down those mages and abominations, with their soul being touched by what could be best described as "foreign Pillars which should not exist".
                            My point being that they're less likely to merely try and wrap their heads around the Lucifuge as children of fiends and more likely to try and warp the various dark powers in the burning tree under the conception of their cosmology. The Nameless Empire had plenty of demons, and not all of them were fiends of Duat.

                            A minor but pertinent note on this is that, while still majorly necromanctically aligned, a lot of the powers of the Arisen do now also affect spirits as well.


                            Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                            Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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                            • #15
                              It'd be not unreasonable for an Arisen to view the fivefold Renown that imprint into the fundamentals of a werewolf's being as an analogous element to the fivefold soul, to be honest.


                              - Chris Allen, Freelance Writer & Developer

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