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  • #16
    Old, but: Perhaps the Shade of a person carries the soul to Duat?


    Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
    Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
      Old, but: Perhaps the Shade of a person carries the soul to Duat?
      A very reasonable explanation for them.


      Jason Ross Inczauskis, Freelance Writer
      Projects: Dark Eras 2, Mummy: The Curse 2e, Book of Lasting Death, DtR The Clades Companion, Pirates of Pugmire, They Came From Beyond the Grave!, TC Aeon: Mission Statements, TC In Media Res, DtD Night Horrors: Enemy Action, C20 Anthology of Dreams
      Masculine pronouns preferred.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by White Oak Dragon View Post

        A very reasonable explanation for them.
        The probably overly pedantic question that comes to my mind here is- what do we mean by "soul" in this context? Ghosts (i know, I know, ghosts aren't "people" they are "psychic doubles" of dead people or something like that)? The version of a "soul" that leads to various conditions if you lose it per the core rules? The soul of a mage, the part that allows them to do magic? Or one or more of the five parts of a soul that mummies believe? I'm sorry! Chronicles of Darkness are a little convoluted when it comes to this stuff.

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        • #19
          Well, from what we have between Mummy, Mage, some Demon and a little bit of the other gamelines, a "soul" seems to be the sense of higher self- a person is not their soul, but a soul is required to be a functional "person". From Mage's perspective, it is a combination of their Mind, Fate, Prime, Spirit and Death, which are all tied together to create the person's connection to the Supernal. From Mummy's point of view, it is their Spirit, Name, Essence, Heart and Shadow, the five pillars which define someone's traits and eternal existence. The common idea that the soul is something which persists, a quality which relates to higher realities, and eventually leaves the world. Soul eaters destroy the collective entity which is a "soul" by breaking it to parts, and "pieces" of the soul seem to be imperfect representations of the person (probably like ghosts). In short, a soul is basically a quality which does not simply makes you who you are, but allows you to change, evolve, learn and grow, and without it you become stagnated and starts to "spiritually rot". The soul is not "you" as much as you heart is not "you" and even your brain is not "you"- it is a spiritual "body" or "organ", which connects the five parts which make you "you", and allow the person to grow, change, learn- and eventually, be judged. Because someone without a soul can't be account responsible to their actions, and as such can't be punished for breaking rules which don't apply to them. For Mages, souls are what makes humanity divine. For the Judges, souls are what makes humanity a sacrifice.


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          • #20
            Originally posted by nothri View Post

            The probably overly pedantic question that comes to my mind here is- what do we mean by "soul" in this context? Ghosts (i know, I know, ghosts aren't "people" they are "psychic doubles" of dead people or something like that)? The version of a "soul" that leads to various conditions if you lose it per the core rules? The soul of a mage, the part that allows them to do magic? Or one or more of the five parts of a soul that mummies believe? I'm sorry! Chronicles of Darkness are a little convoluted when it comes to this stuff.
            Ghosts aren’t souls, but they most certainly are people.


            Jason Ross Inczauskis, Freelance Writer
            Projects: Dark Eras 2, Mummy: The Curse 2e, Book of Lasting Death, DtR The Clades Companion, Pirates of Pugmire, They Came From Beyond the Grave!, TC Aeon: Mission Statements, TC In Media Res, DtD Night Horrors: Enemy Action, C20 Anthology of Dreams
            Masculine pronouns preferred.

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            • #21
              Yeah, I still think Shades are the Sheut/Death arcana aligned aspect of the Soul.


              Thoughts ripple out, birthing others

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              • #22
                While that's seems to be the intention, that leads to the question of if that's true, than: a) what are ghosts? b) what about the other parts of the soul?


                Check my STV content, Or My Homebrew

                "And all our knowledge is, Ourselves to know"- An Essay on Man

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                  While that's seems to be the intention, that leads to the question of if that's true, than: a) what are ghosts? b) what about the other parts of the soul?
                  Let's go to the book:

                  Originally posted by Dreams of Avarice, Litany of the Fivefold Soul
                  We are the five who dwell within you and surround you. We are the hand that writes and the voice that speaks. We are the speech within that shapes your mouth and the spirit that moves your hand. Thus have we been bound into you, oh Deathless One, within a single, heavy drop of Sekhem, which flows between Keb and Duat upon the River and sinks along the Nebtet's red paths.

                  Deathless One, know that when the rites have been completed [and] your flesh has been sanctified you will feel your body call, and an urge to re-enter it and walk the sunlit world again. Do not return! If you walk against the flow of Nebtet's blood it will dissolve you, and we five will fly to separate destinies. Your Shadow will howl in Neter-Khertet and the living will curse you. Your Spirit will invade your body and raise it to hunt the living, who will burn you as an abomination. Your Essence will flow between Keb and Duat, to mingle in oases and holy places, and witches and unnatural things will devour it. Your Name will be forgotten, and your Heart will sink alone to Duat, with no advocate, where She of the Countless Teeth will consume it. This is the first straying from the way of Deathlessness.


                  Resident Lore-Hound
                  Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                  • #24
                    Ah yes, the Dreams of Avarice- how could I have not checked the actual "guide to the soul"?

                    So if the force which binds the soul together breaks, your Shadow/Death becomes a ghost, your Spirit/Mind becomes an hungry dead (probably a Vampire reference, but could also be a zombie or any other undead), your Essence/Prime is mixed in the world's ley lines, your Name/Fate gets forgotten and your Heart/Spirit is eaten by the Devourer. So if the Shades are a piece of the soul, it seems that by the book's analysis they fit more to the Heart, IMO, than the Shadow- but I personally view Shades as "complete souls", with the Shadow being projected to serve as their body (we could also say that they are the "howling Shadow in Neter Khertet", but that feels much more like ghost than like shade, and that again brings the question of what are ghosts).

                    That also makes me think if each of the parts of the soul are "sentient", perhaps like how the Shadow may be ghosts, the Spirit could be either the Beast or even the Strix, and maybe your Name could correspond to the Echoes from Demon- which are the burn remains of Covers which still haunt you (which is very fitting for "forgotten names"). I could imagine that Essence piece with a strong sense of identity could perhaps become a "guardian spirit" of a Loci or other place of power (like how Sentient Places are presented in Hunter 2e), while the Heart may be a clinging horror of some sort.... which also sounds like a ghost, except that ghosts are controlled by Death and not Spirit- so who knows? Could be its own ephemeral entity.

                    (Also, what I find as extremely funny is that in a way, the Dreams of Avarice is the most supportive text to the ideology of the Keepers of the Source- for while Mage and Werewolf make their claims sound like nonsense, Dreams of Avarice basically says that those creatures consume souls, so using a Source could be seen as a "bad thing" (sure, you could argue it is not a "complete soul", but still- not cool). Just wanted to point it out because it amused me)


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                    "And all our knowledge is, Ourselves to know"- An Essay on Man

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                    • #25
                      I really do need to reread Dreams of Avarice. Sorry everyone.
                      I had previously considered it as unreliable, in the same vein as the Book of the Deceived. And they were written in 1st edition, before Shades (and Fiends for that matter) were writen.
                      But we shouldn't dismiss it; they are our sources.

                      I will say that it has been confirmed multiple times that Ghosts aren't Souls, which implies to me they aren't 'part' of a soul either. Obviously that is an unpopular position and to be fair, nothing comes close to saying that in primary sources.
                      That said, given how they do seem to focus more on memory for both Essence and as a currency between themselves (see the Absent in Geist 2nd), as well as the ultimate fate of them in the Underworld...i'd say they have more than a little nod to the Ren (Name) in the cited passage.


                      Thoughts ripple out, birthing others

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                      • #26
                        Oh, I can't say that this is an unpopular opinion as I have no way to prove that my opinion is more popular :P Like, it could very well be that yours is the popular one. However, there are a few things which lead me to think about Ghosts as Sheut versus Shades-

                        a) We know that ghosts are soulless- however, in my view, being a "part" of a soul doesn't mean that you have a soul. I mean, your skin is not "you", but you are not "you" without your skin- or heart, or brain, or any other organ. Souls are a collective of five parts, so if you are only a part of it, you don't have a soul.

                        b) Ghosts are the incarnation of the memory of the dead. Basically, they are small moments of "Death" that something leaves behind- and the idea of ephemeral pieces of Death which carry an uncanny resemblance to the person that left them behind really feels, IMO, like the presence of a Shadow pillar, unsupported by the others

                        c) Again, the Dreams of Avarice description of Sheut which seems to be much more like ghosts than like shades. Shades seems more "complete", from my reading, so it feels like they are more like "ghosts which have souls"- or basically, a complete soul, instead of just pieces of it.

                        d) In Egyptian religion, the "Shadow" wasn't just a literal shadow, but any kind of imprint of the person- like paintings and sculptures. Ghosts are the imprints of the person who left them- making them into a "Shadow" by that definition. Sure, Iremite religion does not have to obey its real life parallel, but still, it should be noted.

                        e) I think that the main reason for that view of mine is that I'm Jewish, and something which I think that wasn't really brought up as far as I'm aware that in Orthodox/mystical Judaism, the Soul is also a five parts entity! Those components are Nephesh (Spirit), Rukh (Ghost/Wind), Neshama (Soul- it's complicated), Haya (Living Thing) and Yehida (Unity). I'm not going to go through the whole "Kabbalistic Soul Anatomy" (again, it's complicated but could be applied through some creative interpretation to Mummy's concepts), but that basic idea is this- not everything has all five parts of the Soul. Animals, for example, have only Nephesh and Rukh, yet no "higher units". So as this is a part of my system of belief, it makes sense to me that something could only have some parts of a soul without having a soul. Does the mysticism of Judaism apply to Mummy's cosmology? Probably not, but again, it somewhat fits, IMO.

                        Again, nothing canon to support either claims, but that's just my view on the subject.


                        Check my STV content, Or My Homebrew

                        "And all our knowledge is, Ourselves to know"- An Essay on Man

                        I now blog in here

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                        • #27
                          I just love how we have these philosophical debates regarding the material.


                          Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                          Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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                          • #28
                            "Your Shadow will howl in Neter-Khertet and the living will curse you."

                            This could easily fit either the description of a ghost or a shade. Or something else

                            "Your Spirit will invade your body and raise it to hunt the living, who will burn you as an abomination."

                            Most likely referencing a revenant or similar walking corpse. One could assume that any body animated by magic is powered by the Ba. Interesting to note that this switches the Ba and Ka seen in previous books- usually the Ka is what gets blamed for the corpse rising in old Irem, at least from the few references made to it.

                            "Your Essence will flow between Keb and Duat, to mingle in oases and holy places, and witches and unnatural things will devour it."

                            Huh. So is this implying that the Ka and the "Essence" powering ghosts, spirits, werewolves, and Angels are the same thing? Interesting.

                            "Your Name will be forgotten"

                            In my opinion, completely ambiguous and a good candidate for another entity stalking Twilight and Duat.

                            "and your Heart will sink alone to Duat, with no advocate, where She of the Countless Teeth will consume it."

                            So according to this every unsanctified soul killed in ancient irem (and beyond?) is devoured by Ammit. So...did she "save" the leftovers the way she did with the Shuankhsen? How big an army is waiting down there in her maw?

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by nothri View Post
                              "Your Shadow will howl in Neter-Khertet and the living will curse you."

                              This could easily fit either the description of a ghost or a shade. Or something else

                              "Your Spirit will invade your body and raise it to hunt the living, who will burn you as an abomination."

                              Most likely referencing a revenant or similar walking corpse. One could assume that any body animated by magic is powered by the Ba. Interesting to note that this switches the Ba and Ka seen in previous books- usually the Ka is what gets blamed for the corpse rising in old Irem, at least from the few references made to it.

                              "Your Essence will flow between Keb and Duat, to mingle in oases and holy places, and witches and unnatural things will devour it."

                              Huh. So is this implying that the Ka and the "Essence" powering ghosts, spirits, werewolves, and Angels are the same thing? Interesting.

                              "Your Name will be forgotten"

                              In my opinion, completely ambiguous and a good candidate for another entity stalking Twilight and Duat.

                              "and your Heart will sink alone to Duat, with no advocate, where She of the Countless Teeth will consume it."

                              So according to this every unsanctified soul killed in ancient irem (and beyond?) is devoured by Ammit. So...did she "save" the leftovers the way she did with the Shuankhsen? How big an army is waiting down there in her maw?
                              I wish I knew more about the current canonical combination of Mage and Mummy regarding soul parts, but iirç, I had a few misgivings with it. For example, in Egyptian myth, the Ab is the seat of feelings and sentience, which to me screams Mind. Which would make sense, if it disappears into Duat with no protection. Yet at the same time, the Ba was that little voice in your head that is you, making choices and being self aware, which ALSO fits mind. Especially since a lot of Ba imagery involved the Ba being your self awareness flying out of your body much like astral travel.

                              I do agree with the idea that just because a Ghost isn't a soul DOESNT mean that it isn't a FRAGMENT of the soul, or at least one of many echoes or shadows the soul created. Because Doppelgangers are a thing, I am hesitant to say a Ghost is the FULL Sheut, but certainly is one of the many shadows and echoes a soul created in the world. A soul with unfinished business or that has many near death experiences could create multiple ghosts, after all. None of which fit the bill to be the WHOLE sheut of a person. The Absent definitely add an interesting twist as they consume, harbor, and give away such echoes so often that they aren't even really the ghost of a single person anymore, but a magath-like amalgamation.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Cleverest of Things View Post

                                I wish I knew more about the current canonical combination of Mage and Mummy regarding soul parts, but iirç, I had a few misgivings with it. For example, in Egyptian myth, the Ab is the seat of feelings and sentience, which to me screams Mind. Which would make sense, if it disappears into Duat with no protection. Yet at the same time, the Ba was that little voice in your head that is you, making choices and being self aware, which ALSO fits mind. Especially since a lot of Ba imagery involved the Ba being your self awareness flying out of your body much like astral travel.
                                Okay that I can help with, though just a quick reminder that Mummy: The Curse is faux proto-ancient Egypt, so there is going to be some deviation.
                                The cross over between M:Aw and M:tC in the Dark Eras Companion (Princes of the Conquered Land) is the primary source for this, though Dark Eras 1 does hint around these ideas in the To the Strongest chapter (thank the Weret-Hekau for that).
                                As you may know, Mage associates the Soul with the 5 subtle Arcana, which in turn matches the whole "5 Pillars of the Soul" concept used in Mummy.
                                Originally posted by DEC, page 137
                                • Ab: Spirit
                                • Ba: Mind
                                • Ka: Prime
                                • Ren: Fate
                                • Sheut: Death


                                Thoughts ripple out, birthing others

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