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  • #16
    I said the Empire nothri not the city. Also the mages they warred with are implied to be abyssal mages.


    See you all on the other side.

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    • #17
      I believe, according to semi Canon 1e examples, that the city states of the fertile crescent of the day were largely ruled by scelesti, werewolves of a fringe that could control their shapeshifting better, and vampires. I am part of the group that believes that when Irem went to Ubar, it was Sorcerers fighting Mages. And it was only because how devastating Utterances (especially if backed by the Devourer) can be that Irem won. Mages are known to be OP in general, but if the 42+ (since 2e is much more vague on the number) Shaniatu all focus non-paradox inflicting Utterances on your capital city, you won't have much of a chance.

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      • #18
        I know that Kish specifically was ruled by Scelesti as mentioned in one of the Mage books, but why would Mummy bother to specify whether any of the other mage ruled cities were ruled by Scelesti or not?
        Edit: Iirc Kish was at war with non-Scelesti mages from multiple other city-states in the fertile crescent, so I don't think Scelesti was close to being in majority. The impression I got from that one Mage book was that Kish was alone in how Abyssally corrupted it was.
        Last edited by Tessie; 03-14-2020, 07:52 AM.


        Bloodline: The Stygians
        Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
        Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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        • #19
          Originally posted by TyrannicalRabbit View Post
          I said the Empire nothri not the city. Also the mages they warred with are implied to be abyssal mages.
          Okay. That's fair enough, I suppose. In that case, take everything I said about feeding the name of the city to the devourer being a bad, neigh on suicidally terrible idea that runs counter to the Shan'iatu endgame and multiply it about 1000 times. Same basic fundamental problems, wider scale. And I still don't know where the reference is coming from.

          On the Scelesti thing, I'll own that the text is vague enough for many different interpretations. For my part I will always assume that Mummy is seeking to keep its game "in house" when it comes to their backstory- it makes more sense to me that the confrontation with Ubar is describing the first encounter with an established antagonist (albeit an antagonist that we only had vague references to until Dark Eras and later second edition) rather than an enemy I would need a whole other separate setting book to understand and implement. But if crossover interests you then go to town. I'm sure the text is somewhat vague on the point for that exact reason.

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          • #20
            I've reread some of the books now. In first edition it's only Ubar that is implied to be abyssal (and not specifically abyssal; only weird), and it's annihilated ("The sands have swallowed even its stones.") in the battle between the Nameless empire and the collective forces of the Ki-En-Gir, which does not fit with Kish in Mage which was destroyed by other mages and didn't involve any other parties. Ubar could still be connected to the abyss, but without the connection to Kish the citadel could also be weird for unrelated reasons.

            In second edition a few things have changed, but mostly because the writer doesn't seem to have fully understood which parts where actually historical and which parts were fiction. In first edition Canaan have a connection to the soldiers of the Ki-En-Gir. For those who know that Ki-En-Gir is another name for Sumer, it's pretty clear that the nomads are tributaries (or similarly) to Sumer and possibly other city states. In second edition, however, the Ki-En-Gir are rewritten to being the military force under the leadership of Canaan, (which is not an unreasonable interpretation of the first edition text if you don't know the historical context).
            Ubar does show up in second edition (this time being the citadel of the Ki-En-Gir instead of being a citadel where the two forces met), and in this case it's explicitly the Shan'iatu that destroy the citadel ("until nothing but rubble and ash remained"). But since the Ki-En-Gir is part of Canaan, any connection to the abyss wouldn't technically reflect on the city states of the fertile crescent.
            (And yes, I really, really hope this part is rewritten for the final release.)


            In both core books, the City of Pillars was unnamed (just like the River, aka the Nile, was unnamed). It was referred to as the City of Pillars by its inhabitants and as Irem after it had already disappeared. In the first edition core book it's also stated that the same holds true for the Nameless Empire. No name was needed because there was no other empire (though I would personally argue that whatever word they used for "empire" would also be its name, but whatever). Second edition doesn't mention anything afaict. I do not know if any of this is contradicted by any of the supplements (or even later parts of the first core book that I haven't read).


            Bloodline: The Stygians
            Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
            Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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