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Invested non-cultists and Immortal Sorcerers?

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  • Invested non-cultists and Immortal Sorcerers?

    Are these things possible?

    To explain the situation.. one of the PCs is a Reborn that follows the Maa-Kep, dedicated lifetime after lifetime to the Hawkman and the Justice Society that surrounds him. By loyalty and principle, as well as his Reborn memories, he has always served the Justice Society and the Hawkman, and the Maa-Kep always seek the three bodies that house his shattered soul (that bit is complicated and unrelated but I can explain further if it becomes relevant). This Reborn, called the Vindicated, is ALWAYS the High Priest of the Maa-Kep, and trains his next incarnation. However, there is a complication. This Reborn shares an Immortal, if often complicated, love for a DIFFERENT mummy. The Reborn remembers his love affair with a Tef-Aabhi, and even when he is lost in the sands of time, the Tef--aabhi loves him back. This is a relatively well known fact (depending on Memory) amongst both guilds. The Maa-Kep may hold the Vindicated's Spirit, but that one Tef-Aabhi holds his heart.

    I think I read a line somewhere in the PDF suggesting that multiple mummies can invest Pillars in the same person, so I just ask for clarity. Can this Reborn be dedicated to one cult, but be the inheritor of a pillar from an entirely different mummy, of a different guild and cult? Can a Mummy give his pillars to anyone he trusts and loves, even if that person loves another? (Yes, it might trigger a descent roll for the tef aabhi as it definitely fits the whole "declare your true love for someone in iremic" thing, and is honestly the only way I see that sin popping up in game). Is a Mummy only allowed to invest Pillars in their mechanically literal cultists, or can they do it to anyone they trust with a piece of their soul? Can multiple mummies invest in someone? Or does a human, even if immortal, soul only have room for one Forever Friend?

    Different question, but the same character. I think I've asked this before, but now that things seem to be clearing up, I also remember an offhanded reference that an immortal's path to immortality doesn't count against the number of rites they know. Does this confirm that an Immortal can be a Sorcerer, and Vice Versa? If so, does that mean a Sorcerer can learn a form of immortality and that it doesn't count as a Rite? And likewise, can immortal's take sorcerous merits? Clearly such a being would be pretty powerful (especially if Invested, hence why he is a major PC, always the high priest, and trusted by at least four arisen crossimg three guilds).

    From what I can tell, all of that is possible, especially if I use the Golden rule. But is it strictly Canon? Can different mummies, even from different cults, invest in the same person? Can an Immortal become a Sorcerer, or a Sorcerer become immortal?

  • #2
    I can answer the question about immortal sorcerers: yes. An immortal is capable of learning the sorcerer Merits, and no, their immortality ritual doesn’t take a slot (though if you want a sorcerer to gain or create an immortality rite over the course of the game, you could always have it count for a few stories as they adjust to their new state, then free up the slot at a later time once the novelty wears off).


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    • #3
      Immortals can definitely become sorcerers, as this is explicitly mentioned in the text. Immortals are also able to assume supernatural merits as a mortal, which include the ritual sorcerer merit.

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      • #4
        Okay, good. That one I was fairly sure about but just wanted to clarify.

        The bigger question mark is the first, if a Mummy can invest their pillars into anyone they choose, but USUALLY only do so to their own cultists. I understand it rarely comes up in game, but this has become a big question in mine. It started in 1e when the cultists of the last surviving Maa-Kep of Metropolis was sent out as an envoy to the other Guilds, and fell in love with a local tef-aabhi frat boy. I went all extra and decided they were lovers in Item, and that the Reborn Maa-Kep cultists is still loyal to his guild but, at the time figuratively, has the Tef-aabhi's heart lifetime after lifetime, whenever they meet (which is awkward because in 1912 the Reborn is married with kids). If it's possible, I think it would be really interesting to have a cultist that joined a different cult to a different arisen, and is loyal to them, but ALSO still holds the Mason's heart.

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        • #5
          There is a merit in 2e, Inherited investment or something, that is one of your ancestors got invested and you inherited the pillar. It even says the Arisen can't reclaim it unless you join the cult and got invested again.


          Thoughts ripple out, birthing others

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          • #6
            Originally posted by FallenEco View Post
            There is a merit in 2e, Inherited investment or something, that is one of your ancestors got invested and you inherited the pillar. It even says the Arisen can't reclaim it unless you join the cult and got invested again.
            Hmm, so investing Pillars may be possible to do to a non-cultists, but you can't reclaim it unless they are part of your cult. Interesting. So my Tef-Aabhi could GIVE his heart to someone but not take it back. I wonder if that Inherited Pillar thing would work on a Reborn rather than a family line. It is a bit tragic that they can't truly be together, which has been reflected in the game already, but it's interesting to see that there is mechanical bite to it.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Cleverest of Things View Post

              Hmm, so investing Pillars may be possible to do to a non-cultists, but you can't reclaim it unless they are part of your cult. Interesting. So my Tef-Aabhi could GIVE his heart to someone but not take it back. I wonder if that Inherited Pillar thing would work on a Reborn rather than a family line. It is a bit tragic that they can't truly be together, which has been reflected in the game already, but it's interesting to see that there is mechanical bite to it.
              I think the "can't reclaim it" thing is more a result of the individual not undergoing the rite in the first place, but I can see a Reborn taking a Pillar with them to their next life, if you let one die before taking it back.


              Thoughts ripple out, birthing others

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              • #8
                This seems to be a question, then, that only a developer can answer. RAW assumes you'd only use the Rite of Investment on your own cultists, but this seems to be an edge case. Is there a spiritual/metaphysical reason that a Mummy CANT invest in someone that isn't a cultist? Is it a matter of trust and convenience, or is there a magical thing stopping it? Please, if any of the developers read this.. can a lovesick mummy give his heart to someone outside of his cult?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cleverest of Things View Post
                  This seems to be a question, then, that only a developer can answer. RAW assumes you'd only use the Rite of Investment on your own cultists, but this seems to be an edge case. Is there a spiritual/metaphysical reason that a Mummy CANT invest in someone that isn't a cultist? Is it a matter of trust and convenience, or is there a magical thing stopping it? Please, if any of the developers read this.. can a lovesick mummy give his heart to someone outside of his cult?
                  Not a dev, just a deep-reader, but:

                  The Rite of Investment is a swearing of loyalty to the mummy. The description on page 84 of the advance PDF goes through the basics of it, which is "in addition to the prosaic connections between a mummy and their cult, the two share a light mystic connection which the Rite of Investment strengthens for individual cultists."

                  Scorpion Cult Initiation describes its basic effects as making the character a valid target for the Rite of Investment.

                  Lineal Inheritor works on the basis of one of your parents holding a Pillar and it passing on to you following their death; the mummy can't retrieve their Pillar point until you're formally Invested, and even after that you have a greater capacity to hold Invested Pillar points than other characters of the same tier.

                  You can hold Pillars without being Invested, but mostly that happens if you're a sorcerer cannibalizing vestiges — Investment appears to require a cultic connection to the mummy at some level, even if it's just "one of your ancestors was an Inheritor of the mummy."


                  Resident Lore-Hound
                  Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                  • #10
                    That still makes me wonder. For example, if two or mummies run the same cult (which is the case of our Maa-Kep Justice Society), I assume all the Mummies could invest in any given cultist. Even still, swearing eternal love to one mummy that isn't the head of your cult COULD happen, in this case it being due to eternal love. It's all made far more possible due to this cultist being Reborn, and his fate is bound to the Maa-Kep and the Blue Beetle, despite him being eternally in love with a Tef Aabhi he knew in their first lives. Granted it's not that hard to use the Golden rule and just... Say it works, and it won't break the game. Even if only possible in such a rare circumstance as this.

                    It does fit the cultist's storyline. He even joked with the mummy about how their timing is always off. In this life, the cultist's memories only returned after he was already rejoined with the Maa-kep, and he already had a wife and two kids. In 1999, the mummy had a girlfriend and was obsessed with finding his wife, and the cultist already had a boyfriend. Their tragic love has been a great source of drama. I suppose it would fit that he inherits that Heart pillar in every lifetime --the mummy never plans on taking it back, and it's really more there for dramatic purposes than mechanical ones anyway.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cleverest of Things View Post
                      I suppose it would fit that he inherits that Heart pillar in every lifetime --the mummy never plans on taking it back, and it's really more there for dramatic purposes than mechanical ones anyway.
                      I should point out: your Inheritors are mostly people you see something of yourself in — poetic language aside, if you Invest a point of your Heart Pillar in someone, it's typically because something about their passion resonates with you and you trust them to hang onto a bit of your passion, not necessarily as a gesture of love. Investment is Mummy's equivalent of Be My Guest for Beasts, in that you're spending a quantity of soul-stuff to give somebody an occult tag that you can later revoke; the main difference is that the Arisen can rescind Inheritorship simply to recover their strength.

                      Remember that Sadikh exist and fill much of the niche you're looking to Investment for — the Rite of the Engraved Heart is a moderately intimate affair that makes someone a "companion" for the remainder of their experience of linear time.


                      Resident Lore-Hound
                      Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                      • #12
                        Sadly, the sadikh path isn't an option--the mummy already has a sadikh, and the would be inheritor is already Immortal. And indeed, the Reborn DOES reflect the mummy's passion. In their lives, the Reborn was a slave boy in the mummy's household,they grew up together, and had feelings for each other. And though the mummy grew to become a conquering hero who was a master strategist at building the empire's southern front, the slave boy found out that the Nubian princess was secretly living among the slaves. He more or less pushed her to take part in the slave rebellion due to his passion and desire to remake the world and end the tyranny. Hesve ended up Shuanksen if the mummy's father didn't personally kill him as the boy defended his princess.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cleverest of Things View Post
                          Sadly, the sadikh path isn't an option--the mummy already has a sadikh, and the would be inheritor is already Immortal. And indeed, the Reborn DOES reflect the mummy's passion. In their lives, the Reborn was a slave boy in the mummy's household,they grew up together, and had feelings for each other. And though the mummy grew to become a conquering hero who was a master strategist at building the empire's southern front, the slave boy found out that the Nubian princess was secretly living among the slaves. He more or less pushed her to take part in the slave rebellion due to his passion and desire to remake the world and end the tyranny. Hesve ended up Shuanksen if the mummy's father didn't personally kill him as the boy defended his princess.
                          Right, I'm just saying that the mechanics of Pillar Investment should not be overly conflated with particular sentiment on the part of the mummy; you can love someone without giving them a piece of your Heart and vice-versa. This is Mystical Cult Shit moreso than pure emotional gesture.

                          Going back to the initial set of questions:

                          Mummies can share a cult, and the way the Cult Merit works means nothing really breaks from that cult being a cross-guild affair even if individual cultists might need to do some fine-slicing for effects based on which guild their Arisen master belongs to.

                          Sorcerers can hold Pillars that aren't from any mummy in particular in the same basic fashion as Investment (It's the only logical explanation for Sachiko Ishii of the Nyctopian Masters having an Investment despite no involvement with the Arisen whatsoever), so it stands to reason that a character can be Invested with Pillars from multiple mummies if they were a cultist of those mummies at the time of Investment.

                          Otherwise, yes, the normal circumstances are that a mummy can only Invest Pillars in the literal people whose loyalty they command through Scorpion Cults. Aberrant circumstances are otherwise the most probable explanation, given that the Rite of Investment is, again, a thing that involves that declaration of "fealty, loyalty, and veneration." A shared connection through the character's first life in the Nameless Empire definitely fits the bill for one of those aberrant circumstances.

                          Sidebar: It seems incredibly silly to suppose that a declaration of true love could only pop up in the context of Investment when 1) that breaking point pre-dates Second Edition and 2) "mummy romance novel love interest" is a thing that pre-dates the Karloff mummy archetype.

                          As it stands it seems like the best bet mechanically is just to have the Reborn be a Lineal Inheritor whose inherited Pillar happens to be from a different mummy than the cult they belong to.


                          Resident Lore-Hound
                          Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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