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  • Ammut the Devourer theories

    My theory is that Ammut is a being from the Inferno who got involved in Irem. Maybe Irem was even a bit less horrible of a place initially, but he corrupted it over time. So that would mean he's basically a Sumerian demon.

    Anybody else got any good thoughts, or have does Ammut appear in any other game lines?

    Mage has a Prince of 10,000 leaves that emerges from egyptian culture into a cannibal empire, is that related to Ammut or Irem?

  • #2
    I don't thin she has anything to do with the Prince. The Prince is an entire alternate world for one thing, where cannibalism is a sign of high birth and being a member of the priesthood. Ammut is always portrayed as something feral, and negative, in story.

    That, and the Prince is too young, he came in with Ancient Egypt, Irem is a predecessor to the Egyptian kingdoms.


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    • #3
      I'm not declaring it official, but I have this niggling feeling in the back of my head that the Devourer is tied in, at least in someway, to each of the Curses that raised the vampire Clans.


      Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
      The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
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      • #4
        I'm assuming this is a storyteller-spoiler thread, so with that in mind:


        A lot of people seem to think that the Shan'iatu ascended Duat not to serve the Judges, but become them. If the Judges are the old sorcerer-priests of Irem, was Ammut one of them as well? Because, in the Shuankhsen's origin story, it seems like the Shan'iatu had to regrettably deal with her before they could even attempt the Arisen's Rite of Return

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        • #5
          I've made a number of theories, some where made for crossovers, others are just for fun and some I've simply thought about when I had nothing better to do :P

          1) Ammut is God. More exactly, it is the power that created all life, and as such it is the manifestation of all life force. The Judges were false gods, idols made by the Shan'iatu- but in order to bring them to life, they needed energy, a life force- Sekhem. This is why they made the Arisen and made Irem into a Nameless- all in order to steal the power of God and create their own gods. Now, God is broken. He lost most of His/Her energy by the Judges, and now he/she wants it back- and so it must devour any relic, any memory and any Arisen before it would be complete again.

          2) Ammut isn't simply God- it is the God Machine. Irem was made by Demons, who used the Shan'iatu as a Cover, ion order to create their own Infrastructure. The God Machine, however, wants to absorb the "renegade program" back- and it includes the Deathless.

          3) In a world where the Akhud are right about their origin, the Judges were the manifestation of the Man within the 42 vampires who ruled Irem, while Ammut is their collective beast. So much negative feelings combined into one can't create something nice, however, and so Ammut still fights against the Judges- by trying to destroy all life. After all, mere Vitae isn't enough any longer in order to feed Her, and she needs the life energy in a more refined version- Sekhem.

          4) Ammut is ancient. More ancient than anything else you've ever imagined. She is the primordial principle of consumption- she is the end of all things, like a spiritual black hole in the bottom of all creation. She is the end of all things- both time and fate bound together in order to end all life. However, the Shan'iatu wished to defy her will, to make their empire Nameless and bring their servants from beyond the grave. For that, they had to appease Ammut- but by doing so, they gave her access to the mortal world, and as long as the Arisen and their Judges are around, she would still be there- hungry, patient and silent. (in short, she is the Wyrm, the Oblivion and Grandma all combined together)


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          • #6
            I always interpreted Ammut as just the personification of entropy. All Iremite magic has that sort of "first and second laws of magical thermodynamics" feel to it, where the only way you can get anything is by sacrificing something of greater value to "the devourer". For these purposes that makes the devourer essentially oblivion-with-a-face or, to put it in oWoD terms, the Wyrm.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Gabby View Post
              I always interpreted Ammut as just the personification of entropy.
              And only now do I remember the epilogue of Ovid's Metamorphoses.

              Then again, I have an avowed fixation upon the translation of that one Bhagavad-Gita quote that renders "Death" as "Time," so I'm hardly unbiased in my reading.


              Resident Lore-Hound
              Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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              • #8
                My guess is she is "just" some entity of what the mages all lump together under the Lower Depths or perhaps some Cthulhu-esque type being not from the Depths. Given some of the, if I am remembering correctly, discussions on her and Duat I am really hoping they do explore some of the options and possible answers in upcoming material. While I didn't care for the book(V:tR's 7 antagonistic book) overall I do think Onyx has been doing a good job in their scenario book giving people a variety of possibilities for their games to use as a starting point or to inspire their own creations. Not sure if that is the approach though for Mummy given the differences in the game's secret history structure. Either way I do hope as we wait for the Deceived book that it or others explores this more.


                See you all on the other side.

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                • #9
                  I've been reading the Marco Singe story in the world of darkness book and how is this for an idea!

                  The angel says that in the old days people didn't really die, they just went to the shadow of the world and returned. That could mean virtually anything. Maybe they reincarnated with an intact identity as conversational babies or maybe they came back to life similar to the way mummies do. Point is that death worked in a very different way where people didn't go away forever, they'd visit some other realm / place and then come back again.

                  So I was wondering what if when death 'broke' that old afterlife is no longer being used. What happened to all the old death spirits that worked there? What if it was still there? The Judges might be the old spirits that used to council people until they were ready to come back to life. Ammut might be one of them. The Duat could basically be the afterlife that existed before the Singe' stories catastrophe ensued and people started dying forever.

                  Maybe Ammut is a spirit that got cast out or a spirit that was mutilated and corrupted when Duat got screwed up.

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                  • #10
                    Well, all the info we have on Ammut is kinda questionable. As we have only tiny bits of info inferred from several sources e.g. a Shuankshen, some relics and bits of muddled stories that are most certainly not what the Shan'Iatu wanted considered "cannon" for their background. Contrast the "official" history of Irem at the front of the book with some of the stuff in the ST section and Guildhalls and you get the impression that Irem invented Propaganda among many other aspects of society.

                    In any-case, really the sky is the limit when it comes to theorizing about Ammut with the info we have at the moment. Basically, all stories are true/possible. Deceived might change that and if not then if the Book of Going Westerward/Book of Duat that we just missed funding on during the Kickstarter is made, I imagine it will provide more info. Dreams of Avarice might also have some info on at least what's up with her possible relationship with the Shan'Iatu. Depending on its balance of truth about history vs self-enlightenment sections.

                    For my own head cannon at current and for the Mummy games I have run she's been a few different things -

                    1) She's the "God" of her own Sub-Realm (namely duat) in what Mages would call the Lower Depths. All other "demons" of Duat are her "children" and she basically has final say on what's going in in the realm. Like all realms in the Lower Depths, Duat and therefore Ammut lacks "life" hence her want for Sekhem, the life energy of our world. Basically, she's a big old interdimensional tick living in a parasite realm linked to our own.

                    2) She's a "Satan" figure in the metaphysical battle of good/creation vs evil/destruction. She's Izars (divine pharaoh) opposite number. The other nameless gods of Irem are sorta a moral "grey" area between the two. With Anpu and Seth more "dark" inclined. (One thing I like about this one is that you can kinda paint the Shan'Iatu as Infernalists of a sort with a bit of a head tilt).

                    3) She's the embodiment of entropy in a world where the Nameless Gods are all likewise embodiments of various principles or ideas or facts of existence.

                    4) One I used in my Changeling Crossover campaign was that she was one face of a three faceted entity that embodied entropy, chaos and destruction that had one facet in each "world". So Ammut was present as the facet in Duat, the Tanglewoman from Changeling the lost was the facet in Dreams and final facet was not embodied but was the principle of Entropy that underlies the material world.

                    5) Ammut is simply a "dead space", a metaphysical black hole in reality left over to be the God-Machines "trash can" for when it needs to utterly remove something from its "system". All the personification stuff and attributing personality and such to her is just the human/post human method of rationalizing/coping with her existence.


                    "There is no God in the Badlands." - Sunny

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                    • #11
                      Ammut is a thing of the Mummy cosmology. She consumes attempts to fit her into the cosmology of other games. She's also from mythology, where we find answers to the question of her nature.

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                      • #12
                        He had found the tome hidden away in the library of a long dead old man. He had no family or friends, no one cared that he had died what might have been years ago if the mummified flesh was to be believed. The diary was old, the pages a sickly yellow. He opened and began to read the clumsy iremic writing that can only be written by a modern mortal. The diary detailed a cultists last moments serving his mummy lord. Daren, the cultist, described his lord as having been morphed into a monster.

                        Khan was prepared to give the diary to a scribe friend but something stayed his journey. Instead he poured over the diary for the later half of his descent. Zhen gathered his cultists and prepared to travel. The diary was vague, but they eventually found the tomb hidden in the basement of a long gone bowling alley. There were traps set up but they had rusted and barely functioned (one of his followers would need a tetanus shot but otherwise everyone was fine). The smell of rot filled the tomb but the source was unknown. Many of his followers were growing weary but he tried his best to put on a guise of authority and control.

                        They finally reached the tomb proper. It was a horrifying sight. All along the walls Shuankhsen hung by metal chains, their bodies cut open and their dead flesh pinned to the wall. In the middle of the tomb a broken casket was open and its owner stood before it. The mummy had already been awoken by their presence. He looked to be in pain and Khan knew why. The mummy was resisting the call back to duat. In his hands he held a Shuankhsen by the neck. The mummies mouth was gaping open, impossibly so. His khat had been morphed and now gross teeth sprouted from the hole in his head that was supposed to be its mouth. It wrapped the hole around the Shuankhsen's head and bit down. Dead flesh ripped like soggy paper and the mummy swallowed, though the head didn't appear to go anywhere inside the mummy.

                        Khan and his cultists stood in shocked at the sight of barbaric cannibalism. The mummy continued to feast upon the Shuankhsen until nothing remained. It, no longer could Khan bear to think that the mummy might have been human, gave a contented sigh and turned to the large group.

                        "Why have you disturbed me and made me waste a meal?"


                        I think it was a missed opportunity to allow regular mummies to abandon their judge in favor of the Devourer. Of course when a mummy turned away from its judge then that judge will do everything in its power to keep that mummy down. But what if someone else was helping the mummy, giving it the power to survive. A mummy goes mad, maybe due to Shuankhsen influence, and starts to worship the Devourer. Visions in fitful and mad sleep inside his tomb reveals to him the secrets of surviving without a proper judge. All the mummy has to do is become the Devourer incarnate and feed upon her servants. The mummy is stronger and a valuable ally in her war against...well she has a need for the mad mummy. So in exchange for a few servants she gains a powerful servant who will do her bidding.

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                        • #13
                          There is a way for a mummy to 'join' the Devourer.

                          It's called becoming a Shuankhsen.


                          Revlid wrote:
                          Yes, hollowing out your humanity to become an utterly utilitarian asura is the exact suggestion I would expect from you, Aiden.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Aiden View Post
                            There is a way for a mummy to 'join' the Devourer.

                            It's called becoming a Shuankhsen.
                            Yeah that's true but...why would a mummy want to be a Shuankhsen when they could be something even more?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by RisTigger View Post

                              Yeah that's true but...why would a mummy want to be a Shuankhsen when they could be something even more?
                              they dont necessarily want it , i remember reading that when a mummy want to change her body, that there is the risk to become a shuankhsen.


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