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  • #16
    Not really adding much here (sleep derivation will do that). Just going to say I'm with PenDragon on this one.

    The idea that modern day values of what makes a person "moral" contributes to the moral framework of an immortal god-king that lived in a time period where ritual sacrifice was an excepted public norm of religious devotion has always felt incredibly forced to me.

    I have no problem with the general Memory "sins" removed from the core 1E Morality system, its when you throw that rating system on top of the Memory specific ones that the whole thing looks really shaky.

    I think any 2E take on Memory is going to have to approach it notably differently then the core "Integrity" system in 2E for sure. The quotes from Malcolm that Satchel brings up points out issues of just trying to port Mummy's onto Integrity. This does not mean however, that Mummy 2E will need to consign itself to the old "hierarchy of sins" paradigm of the 1E morality system.

    I think we have 8/9 other game lines that will see release into 2E before Mummy will (and already have in the case of Vampire and Demon) play around with what each different major Supernatural template does with the core Integrity system. Vampire has mimicking humans, banes and touchstones. Werewolf has trying to strike a balance on the scale along with two types of touchstones. Demons remove any moral consideration and are more concerned with hiding as well as possible. One of the few things we know about Beast is that they have a slider rather then a scale because their Integrity equivalent is going to fluctuate so much.

    I'm hoping Memory is its own thing, notably interesting and distinct (if related too) Integrity and certainly different from the hidebound 1E Morality system. As unique and representative of Mummy's as the new Harmony rules are for Werewolves. Ultimately Mummy's about self discovery so having Memory tie into having revelations about the self would be nice. Shackling whatever new take 2E brings to Memory to an old 1E system conceit is not going to do the game any favors.


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    • #17
      Originally posted by Hawthorn View Post
      The idea that modern day values of what makes a person "moral" contributes to the moral framework of an immortal god-king that lived in a time period where ritual sacrifice was an excepted public norm of religious devotion has always felt incredibly forced to me.
      You are the recurrent amnesiac bourgeoisie of the ancient seeds of civilization trying to unlearn the moral crutch of "just following orders" and hold onto the important fact that other people are in fact also people and not inevitably-walking sometimes-talking tool-folk like the Judges want you to be.

      "But I'm an immortal god-king!" is kind of a shitty counterargument when "power is a chain you bind yourself with" is a textual aspect of the game.


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      • #18
        Maybe, but I know at least one of my players intends to play a fundamentalist Duat fanatic all too happy to follow the Judges, and would rather not entertain a system that punishes him for that decision.

        Similarly I'd like for my Geist game BBEG (who wishes to break his chains by establishing his own seat in the underworld, wherein he will rule as unforgiving king) not to be a hapless amnesiac who cannot even recall his own objectives.

        Put another way, the more character concepts the game can entertain the better.


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        • #19
          Originally posted by Satchel View Post
          You are the recurrent amnesiac bourgeoisie of the ancient seeds of civilization trying to unlearn the moral crutch of "just following orders" and hold onto the important fact that other people are in fact also people and not inevitably-walking sometimes-talking tool-folk like the Judges want you to be.

          "But I'm an immortal god-king!" is kind of a shitty counterargument when "power is a chain you bind yourself with" is a textual aspect of the game.
          Honestly, the Judges have little to do with it. It's culture, and the more said amnesiac middle class folk (they were artisans and attendants by canon, not nobles) remembers, the more they are like the person who initially went through the Rite of Return (after millennia of personal growth, but still). Said person was likely scared of barbarians, found the idea of slavery being an inherent evil a very strange idea, and was completely used to the Howard-esque strangeness of the Iremite Age (this is the same era of the Poisoned One and her native city, after all). So yeah, the Morality system really doesn't model retrieving who you were very well at all.

          I'm not saying compassion has no place in it, it's just that it should come off as supplementing the Arisen's quest for identity, not the core of it. The "don't be a complete dick" part is better modeled as being rather clannish and suspicious of outsiders (more "protect cult and their immediate family and friends", in other words).


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          • #20
            Originally posted by PenDragon View Post
            Maybe, but I know at least one of my players intends to play a fundamentalist Duat fanatic all too happy to follow the Judges, and would rather not entertain a system that punishes him for that decision.
            "Punishes" him by starting him at that precise point?

            Similarly I'd like for my Geist game BBEG (who wishes to break his chains by establishing his own seat in the underworld, wherein he will rule as unforgiving king) not to be a hapless amnesiac who cannot even recall his own objectives.
            You're not exactly making a cogent case by bringing in a mummy who's a crossover antagonist in a different game and concluding that a character who wants to be a lord of the dead should be engaging with a system whose higher levels mark a return to a mortal perspective.

            Put another way, the more character concepts the game can entertain the better.
            I disagree vehemently when this produces an incoherent baseline and likewise find assessments of the Morality system as "hidebound" for not granting a higher sustainable rating to beings for acting like incarnate curses and ancient god-kings who need not adjust their perspectives to be comical in their irony.

            It is just possible that detractors of the Morality system are dragging this out beyond the bounds of useful conversation. Leet, do you have any particular thoughts on what a 2e patch for Memory ought to be like to suit your purposes?


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            • #21
              Originally posted by Leliel View Post
              Honestly, the Judges have little to do with it.
              The dictates of the Arisen's masters are programmed into their occult state and are directly counter to the notion of the identity of the mortal around them being important. Bits from the first chapter of Deceived would seem to indicate this is kind of a recurring problem with Iremite demiurgy.
              amnesiac middle class folk (they were artisans and attendants by canon, not nobles)
              "Bourgeoisie" is an element of the middle-class, dude.

              So yeah, the Morality system really doesn't model retrieving who you were very well at all.
              This would be a cogent argument if the Arisen hadn't been intermittently moving with the times for several thousand years and having increasingly more of that history in their recollection as they gain Memory.
              Last edited by Satchel; 11-10-2014, 10:52 PM.


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              • #22
                Even fun games have creative integrity, and we're not going to break it. Mummy is never going to make it awesome to be lackeys for their creators. Vampire's never going to go "It's okay brah, kill as many people as you want," either. Go nuts doing these things, but when you want it done "officially" maybe that means you're not sure sure that's such a fantastic idea, eh?


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                • #23
                  I'd contend that human morality hasn't truly progressed as far as we'd like to think, in is inherently subjective, but you are correct in that it's off point.

                  The objective is to create an updated Memory system. The individual breaking points within should be largely customizable, if for no other reason than to prevent future recurrence of this argument.


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                  • #24
                    The bourgeoisie are "middle class" inasmuch as they concern themselves with capital as a means of maintaining their stratum, as opposed to the aristocracy, who benefit from inherited wealth and traditional privilege. So modern "bourgeois" comprise the "upper middle class" (really, the actual middle class--most people who identify as middle class, aren't) as well as people working in finance and corporate management. Irem had an active aristocracy that embodied state power, so the guilds were definitely in the middle, but it's not exactly the guy you know with a middle management job, either.


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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Malcolm View Post
                      Even fun games have creative integrity, and we're not going to break it. Mummy is never going to make it awesome to be lackeys for their creators. Vampire's never going to go "It's okay brah, kill as many people as you want," either. Go nuts doing these things, but when you want it done "officially" maybe that means you're not sure sure that's such a fantastic idea, eh?
                      I might have gone a little off base with examples. I don't think following the Judges should be a rewarding or profitable, the Judges are (arguably) histories most massive assholes. However, I do think it should be possible to have a Mummy who is just as bad as the Shan'iatu were. Because Mummies were people once too, and people can be massive assholes.

                      Edit: To use Vampire as an example, the game certainly paints mass murder as a notably awful act. But at the same time there are systems in place, touchstones and banes, to enable homicidal characters who have not fallen promptly to the beast.
                      Last edited by PenDragon; 11-10-2014, 11:45 PM.


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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by PenDragon View Post
                        However, I do think it should be possible to have a Mummy who is just as bad as the Shan'iatu were.
                        I would strongly advise you to get around to that poring over Deceived and also to reexamine the Shuankhsen.


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                        • #27
                          Both Deceived and Shaunkhsen are great, truly. Excellent flavors of horror, but neither invalidate my core point. That Memory is about recovering who you are, and who you are might be a evil son-of-a-bitch. If morality is to be baked into it that morality needs to at least be subjective to the character, much like Integrity and Humanity Breaking Points can vary greatly from character to character.


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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by PenDragon View Post
                            Both Deceived and Shaunkhsen are great, truly. Excellent flavors of horror, but neither invalidate my core point. That Memory is about recovering who you are, and who you are might be a evil son-of-a-bitch.
                            Okay I think we're just about done here. Closing statement:

                            "What if your humanity is manifest solely in how much of an asshole you are" is a terrible argument for changing Memory to support characters who are high-Memory and also murdering-thieving assholes.

                            Leet, anything at all to move away from this tangent?
                            Last edited by Satchel; 11-11-2014, 03:00 AM.


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                            • #29
                              How about "What if your humanity is manifest through your motivations and boundaries, molded by upbringing and experience into a subjective personal code"?


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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by PenDragon View Post
                                How about "What if your humanity is manifest through your motivations and boundaries, molded by upbringing and experience into a subjective personal code"?
                                You can't answer Integrity questions you can't remember
                                Originally posted by MtC Core p246, "Creative Agency"
                                Mummy makes two main assumptions about the play style of troupes. These won’t be true for every chronicle, but most Storytellers will deal with them at least to some extent:
                                • Players supply their characters, but not (most of) their characters’ backgrounds.
                                • The Storyteller supplies those backgrounds, and they are revealed during play.
                                characterlimit
                                Last edited by Satchel; 11-11-2014, 03:29 AM.


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