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  • #31
    So instead of continuing to bicker, let me put forth another question. Mummies are supposed to grow over time, and have each existed for thousands and thousands of years during which time they may have had dozens or hundreds of incarnations. This poses and issue with starting up a Mummy game set in present day. Reasonably the Arisen characters should have a fair amount of experiences, well beyond a starting character.

    How have people dealt with this?


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    • #32
      Originally posted by PenDragon View Post
      So instead of continuing to bicker, let me put forth another question. Mummies are supposed to grow over time, and have each existed for thousands and thousands of years during which time they may have had dozens or hundreds of incarnations. This poses and issue with starting up a Mummy game set in present day. Reasonably the Arisen characters should have a fair amount of experiences, well beyond a starting character.

      How have people dealt with this?
      Step Eight of Character Creation, to be frank.


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      • #33
        A combination of the fact that Mummies do start with experience (I think I upped it to 35 experience for my own game), and a justification that you don't necessarily retain everything you spend experience on from life to life. Pillars can be eaten by Shuankhsen, skills and Utterances can be forgotten, Affinities go dormant, Memory drops just from the eternal grind (-1 at the end of each Descent, automatically), and Attributes just seem, in part, to be a reflection of how you conceive of yourself, so your lost memories obviously impact that.

        As to the main topic, while I really like World of Darkness 2e, I do feel like Mummy managed to perfect many of the 1e mechanics. The game mechanics integrate more fluidly with 1e's corebook than many of the other game lines, so moving back to it after dabbling in 2e didn't actually feel like a chore.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Azahul View Post
          A combination of the fact that Mummies do start with experience (I think I upped it to 35 experience for my own game), and a justification that you don't necessarily retain everything you spend experience on from life to life. Pillars can be eaten by Shuankhsen, skills and Utterances can be forgotten, Affinities go dormant, Memory drops just from the eternal grind (-1 at the end of each Descent, automatically), and Attributes just seem, in part, to be a reflection of how you conceive of yourself, so your lost memories obviously impact that.
          I suppose it felt like something that should be tied to Memory in some way, but that might be over complicating things. Regardless I think I've figured out a fair approach to memory. I'll try to draft it up when I have time (whenever that is, been busy of late).

          Originally posted by Azahul View Post
          As to the main topic, while I really like World of Darkness 2e, I do feel like Mummy managed to perfect many of the 1e mechanics. The game mechanics integrate more fluidly with 1e's corebook than many of the other game lines, so moving back to it after dabbling in 2e didn't actually feel like a chore.
          Understandable. I've got too great a love for 2nd ED's mechanics to ever go back, but if that works for you all the better.


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          • #35
            Originally posted by Satchel View Post
            "What if your humanity is manifest solely in how much of an asshole you are" is a terrible argument for changing Memory to support characters who are high-Memory and also murdering-thieving assholes.
            I agree that humanity should not be manifested by the idea of the worse characteristics of human nature.

            However, I do think its fair to ask that a revised Memory system allows for a morally gray character (someone who may fit the "anti-hero" stereotype) who has characterful reasons for doing some morally questionable stuff (questionable at least my modern western cultural norms, which is all that 1E Morality was concerned with) to also be able to maintain a high Memory score.

            At current you need to be a pretty fluffy character (a hero/good guy in the modern meaning of the former phrase) to ever climb above 4/5 Memory really. One could see that as limiting the type of Arisen you can play if you also want to engage with the full Memory aspect of the game.

            I'm not saying you couldn't play the character archetype I've outlined above in Mummy 1E. I'm only saying that you would have to play such an archetype as a low Memory character who is always going to be low Memory and not have much character development relating to the Memory aspect of the game.

            For my part at least I'm not asking to play a "murder asshole" who solves all his problems with physical or supernatural force. I'm asking to play a character that may have retained an aspect of an ancient cultures values while evolving to integrate new moral scheme as times have progressed. Said values by modern standards might fall on the dodgy side of modern western middle class norms e.g. breaking an entry into another persons private residence with the intent to steal from them.

            After all, people have messed up belief values that are a hodge podge of cultural norms, personal views and experiential analysis. Even considering that limited Memory would limit all three of these, I don't see why Mummy's should be exempt from these seem mental entanglements that form our views on the world. I agree they are certainly a lot more of a blank slate at Memory 3 and as such it could be argued that a Mummy that lacks that much of a temporal narrative to form their own default view on how to interact with the world according to their own moral narrative. However, I would argue that such Mummy's bereft of such a historically consistent context of self are more likely to develop a moral narrative dependent on their experiences during their current descent (effectively informed by the imprinting of experiential events they experience and can definitively remember), even if the Mummy in question do not go up in Memory.

            One of the earlier points Malcolm brought up also also seems kinda interesting to me as well:

            Even fun games have creative integrity, and we're not going to break it. Mummy is never going to make it awesome to be lackeys for their creators. Vampire's never going to go "It's okay brah, kill as many people as you want," either. Go nuts doing these things, but when you want it done "officially" maybe that means you're not sure sure that's such a fantastic idea, eh?
            I wholeheartedly agree with the first part of this. Memory is opposed to the Judges, I like that. The Sekhem vs Memory battle is one of the finer points of the game in my eyes. Memory should never reward towing the Judges party line. I think some of the discussion on this thread has been at a cross purpose. As I don't think PenDragon was trying to argue that Judge Loyalists should gain Memory from doing what the Judges want them to do. More that Mummy's should be able to me less then "perfect" my modern western middle class values and still be able to climb Memory. Nothing stopping them shirking the Judges decrees and commands while going about their lives in their own individual way.

            As for the second part in relation to Vampire I think there is a more nuanced point to be made. One of the core assumptions (I feel at least) about Requiem is that it presumed your playing a neonate who is still carving out their niche in Vampire society. To do that you put yourself at increasing risk of doing inhuman things to play the Vampire "game" on a nightly basis. As such you are likely playing a character struggling with the conflict between their human and inhuman aspects. The game makes it clear that being more human than inhuman is a good thing. You can get on with mortals better and life in general is easier for you, at least within the mundane aspects of your life.

            Now, in Vampire 2E if a character does for whatever reason internalize an destructive morally abhorrent behaviour as a norm (say impassioned violence, though once again lets try and stay away from "murder asshole" territory) then they can take a Bane and remove that behaviour from the list of "breaking points" that the character has. This represents them loosing a part of themselves to their inhuman side. The character can now go around killing and not suffer any more breaking points. The game does not say this is a good thing, you gain an additional permanent weakness, your future detachment checks get a -1 and so on. However, the game does allow you to play that character and the character can still get as much out of the game as any other vampire character. The character is engaging less with the "man vs beast" aspect then other characters but he can still engage with the rest of the game quite well.

            As a result, and as PenDragon pointed out, you can play a pretty morally ambiguous character who is pretty high humanity because he's got a few banes that negate the more questionable moral things he might do on potentially a semi-regular basis. This allows the character to engage with the general downward spiral of humanity, be a functional character that interacts with humans but is not necessarily a "good" or "nice" person by most peoples standards. Something that at current Mummy and Memory have no analogue for really. I'm sure some sort of thing that allows for more "questionsable" high Memory characters could be introduced without denuding the core idea of self realisation vs service to a higher power that sits at the core of Memory for me.

            As an addenda, I do want to say I don't think the Banes system would fit into a revised Memory system very well. I don't think letting Mummy's negate breaking points that way is necessarily very in-theme for Mummy. I think Touchstones are certainly a neat idea for Mummy, maybe in some relation to cult, vestiges or relics. I'm not suggesting I know how to produce a Mummy 2E Memory system in any way shape or form. I'm more concerned with what that system is going to represent.

            Any scale of behaviour that governs an organisms integration into its environment is always going to be complex. One that has to represent a persons sense of self (which is informed Memory) and any moral elements (if such elements should be involved at all, since several other "morality" systems have no morality aspect really e.g. Demon) is going to be even more complex. Not something easy to iron out into a 1-10 scale with quantifying "do nots" that are universal and not culturally bias.

            As I've said I don't have the answer to this, I'm just trying to analyze the issues I see with Memory as its stands at current. Namely that its limiting (I feel) in character scope and displays cultural bias in its analysis of morality (though a lot 1E NWoD games suffered from this). As I mentioned at the end of my last post, I'm sure the devs will do something interesting with it considering the president set by the other 2E games. I'd be more surprised if Memory remained unchanged between 1E and 2E and I don't think that's all that likely. Time will tell.


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            • #36
              Can we drop that line of debate, it serves little point. Mummy devs will approach it their own way when it comes time for Mummy 2.0, and I won't address it at all.

              But this is homebrew. If someone doesn't like it, they can write their own.


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              • #37
                Originally posted by PenDragon View Post
                Can we drop that line of debate, it serves little point. Mummy devs will approach it their own way when it comes time for Mummy 2.0, and I won't address it at all.

                But this is homebrew. If someone doesn't like it, they can write their own.
                No offense meant.

                Just wanted to catch up with the debate, as I kinda missed it all yesterday (different timezones and all that), also just wanted to kinda put some general thought analysis out there. Get it out of my head so to speak.

                Still, as you say PenDragon, this is a homebrew thread, so should be about homebrew alterations.


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                • #38
                  Apologies for not giving much of an answer on Memory yet, I'm still thinking about what I'd want from it, a dive been rereading the section where it's detailed in the core.

                  EDIT: some thoughts on Memory: maybe to simulate a more organic rise and fall to it, it could have "breaking points" going in different directions? Like Harmony, you could encounter things that push you up and down, unlike Harmony, there wouldn't be an incentive to stay in the middle of it. Maybe performing certain behaviors like mass murder or the judge's decrees might create breaking points down to memory 0, while things like encountering memories or uncovering them could lead to breaking points up to Memory 10 and the like?

                  As another question: I'm I the only one weirded out by how the mechanics of Mummy can mess around with target numbers? That's a dice modification I haven't seen elsewhere and I'm not sure if it s good. What do you guys think? How has that been in play?
                  Last edited by Leetsepeak; 11-11-2014, 01:10 PM.


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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by PenDragon View Post
                    So instead of continuing to bicker, let me put forth another question. Mummies are supposed to grow over time, and have each existed for thousands and thousands of years during which time they may have had dozens or hundreds of incarnations. This poses and issue with starting up a Mummy game set in present day. Reasonably the Arisen characters should have a fair amount of experiences, well beyond a starting character.

                    How have people dealt with this?
                    Honestly, Mummies keep forgetting what they know, so I don't sweat it too much.

                    Regarding 2E Memory hacks, I had some houserule / update hacks that I posted a while back. The pertinent thread is here: http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...the-gmc-update

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                    • #40
                      Draft #1 complete, but before that, a disclaimer:

                      This is a bit of a departure from the core mechanics, more so than the other hacks. It establishes a back and forth of growth and decay, with forgetting as neigh unavoidable threat. It also puts great stock in building, reinforcing the notion that all Mummies are master craftsmen and that they must create in order to retain their power. There is no way everyone is going to like it, for some it will be a bit too radical. And that's fine, but while feedback is greatly appreciated straight criticism (criticism with no form of constructive input) will, for the most part, go unheeded. I'll read it certainly and consider it's merit, but I'd much prefer criticism that refines the idea than that which rails against the basic premise.

                      https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...ZPVfDI3Q/edit#

                      Edit: Added to the main doc
                      Last edited by PenDragon; 11-12-2014, 03:43 PM.


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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Leetsepeak View Post
                        As another question: I'm I the only one weirded out by how the mechanics of Mummy can mess around with target numbers? That's a dice modification I haven't seen elsewhere and I'm not sure if it s good. What do you guys think? How has that been in play?
                        The main way it's showed up in my game is one of my players has Blessed is the God King (and Ka 5). So he can reflexively and retroactively drop a target number down to 6 after rolling the dice to see how many 6s and 7s he got, while his opponents need 9s and 10s to hurt him when the third tier is active. No other player characters have any target number modifiers.

                        It's a cool trick. It, and the occasional NPC with something like Anointed Prowess, don't really feel out of place. It's just another way of interacting with dice pools and probabilities, not dissimilar to being able to get 8-again and the like, while Tier 1 Blessed is the God King in particular is an interesting tactical option.

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                        • #42
                          I like PenDragon's house rules and will probably adopt them.

                          I am curious to have one thing clarified: Does fire still do aggravated damage?

                          Also, are you going to update the Affinities and Utterances in Guildhalls of the Deathless?
                          Last edited by Aiden; 11-14-2014, 09:43 PM.


                          Revlid wrote:
                          Yes, hollowing out your humanity to become an utterly utilitarian asura is the exact suggestion I would expect from you, Aiden.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Aiden View Post
                            I like PenDragon's house rules and will probably adopt them.

                            I am curious to have one thing clarified: Does fire still do aggravated damage?
                            Thanks. I'm kinda divided on fire, on the one hand it feels kinda like the easy way out vs. Arisen, which I don't want. On the other they need something that can slow them down outside of sustained pummeling and super-strong, pattern sundering magic. I left it in, as something badass to spend pillars on.

                            Originally posted by Aiden View Post
                            Also, are you going to update the Affinities and Utterances in Guildhalls of the Deathless?
                            If there is demand I will. Though I'm not updating Affinities, too much work. They still have a good power balance and with few exceptions they are effortless to port.
                            Last edited by PenDragon; 11-14-2014, 09:54 PM.


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                            • #44
                              Well consider me to be putting forward demand!


                              Revlid wrote:
                              Yes, hollowing out your humanity to become an utterly utilitarian asura is the exact suggestion I would expect from you, Aiden.

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                              • #45
                                I figured I would ask here since others might have similar questions, PenDragon.

                                How do Affinities such as Epic Heart or Fearsome Soul end up working in this set up? Or Rouse the Khaibit?
                                Last edited by Aiden; 12-18-2014, 06:45 PM.


                                Revlid wrote:
                                Yes, hollowing out your humanity to become an utterly utilitarian asura is the exact suggestion I would expect from you, Aiden.

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