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Did Irem know about Spirits?

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  • atamajakki
    started a topic Did Irem know about Spirits?

    Did Irem know about Spirits?

    Forrgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems like nothing in Mummy ever touches on spirits or the Shadow; it's the only game that treats Twilight as its oen distinct realm, but populates it almost entirely with ghosts and the occassional rare cosmic horrors like the Black Huriyah. Was the Nameless Empire unaware of spirits?

  • Second Chances
    replied
    Originally posted by nofather View Post
    I believe someone attempted to make a timeline, I'm not sure about it's accuracy.

    While it's unclear exactly when it occurred, the Oath of the Moon and formation of the tribes was a big turning point for the post-Sundering werewolves, the majority of which were likely falling to degeneration and becoming lost in the Hisil forever without a creed to bind them.
    The timeline is actually fairly complete for the dates and times we're discussing here. I've had to make some guesses, but I've talked them over with people on the forums, so I think they are generally well informed. Unfortunately, technological limitations (and a supreme lack of helpful IT support) have made it difficult to share, but I can certainly take screenshots of the relevant sections. Here's the Nile Floodplain and Mesopotamia at the relevant times:




    Irem's pretty far removed from the wolves of Sumer. Honestly, one of the things I'm looking forward to the most is seeing the state of the Spirit World prior to the death of Azar. I don't think it will inform us much about Irem, but we'll see.

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  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    Atta'd be a cool story-one of the Firstborn is hiding somewhere in the Hisil of Irem, and a werewolf must sneak their way into the hostile territory to win the oath of the Firstborn.

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  • nofather
    replied
    I believe someone attempted to make a timeline, I'm not sure about it's accuracy.

    While it's unclear exactly when it occurred, the Oath of the Moon and formation of the tribes was a big turning point for the post-Sundering werewolves, the majority of which were likely falling to degeneration and becoming lost in the Hisil forever without a creed to bind them.
    Last edited by nofather; 02-23-2016, 10:57 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • marmaduke
    replied
    Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
    The Sundered World takes place around 5500 BCE. Wolf doesn't nessecarily die here, but he dies close to it.
    The Shan'iatu murdered Azar and Iset around 5293 BCE. Sometime shortly after, they set out to create the Nameless Empire, which would last until around 3832 BCE.
    The Uratha who will be the Dog-Kings of Sumer established Bau at some unspecified time, but their fall was somewhere in King Gudea's reign, somewhere from 2144 to 2124 BCE.
    Very interesting. Is there a place where I could find more information about the CoD timeline we can infer from the various books?

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  • SunlessNick
    replied
    Irem was the first city and first empire, introduced new technologies, and rendered concepts commonplace that hadn't existed a century before. That's going to add up to an awful lot of new spirits, but probably ones that aren't particularly powerful. I'd figure the Shan'iatu probably knew about them but didn't consider them very important - the kinds of spirit that would find Irem congenial weren't likely to pose a problem to the Shan'iatu's activities, and could be dealth with if they did - though I suspect the Shan'iatu would have had a harder time of it had they tried to extend such efforts to more rural parts where older types of spirit were established. (By implication, it probably meant a lot of werewolves investigating the place too).

    As far as fae things go, the biggest factor in learning about such things is the return of escaped changelings, since most of the rest comes in their wake. Any mortal environment has to get up pretty early in the morning to be worse than a durance, or the risk of finding somewhere else to emerge from the Hedge, but if anywhere could pull it off...

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  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    Originally posted by atamajakki View Post

    At least according to the Forsaken Chronicler's Guide, the Forsaken of this time were much more potent, worshipped as divine and ruling openly as kings in Sumer. I don't see Irem easily conquering them, but more likely at constant war or else uneasy detente.
    Like Arcanist said, that's actually a ways off. The Uratha, during the time of Irem(Which is huge) will make the transition from disparate packs into the tribes and eventually powerful city states, but nothing on the scale of the Empire.

    That aside, my main comment had to do with werewolves born in the Empire itself, rather than foreigners. While we'll be looking at the Vinca in the pre-Sundering world, it would be a mistake to assume that the wolves centered there-indeed, they were already a global family.

    EDIT: Like, for clarity, a small timeline:

    The Sundered World takes place around 5500 BCE. Wolf doesn't nessecarily die here, but he dies close to it.
    The Shan'iatu murdered Azar and Iset around 5293 BCE. Sometime shortly after, they set out to create the Nameless Empire, which would last until around 3832 BCE.
    The Uratha who will be the Dog-Kings of Sumer established Bau at some unspecified time, but their fall was somewhere in King Gudea's reign, somewhere from 2144 to 2124 BCE.

    Also, I'm not sure why you would expect post-Sundering werewolves to be stronger. Maybe pre-Sundering? Sure? But the curses of the Sundering surely hit like a god damned hammer.
    Last edited by ArcaneArts; 02-22-2016, 11:14 PM.

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  • Arcanist
    replied
    The Forsaken of Bau are still almost 1700 years off from the fall of the Nameless Empire, and I would hesitate to judge the power of the Uratha back then until we can benefit from The Sundered World setting in Dark Eras. Irem itself is implied to be the cause of the collapse of early Sumerian civilization, which was itself perhaps a magical civilization supported by the Awakened and possibly by Mother Ocean (who may or may not be the Idigam waking in Bristol) with the Brineborn as its servants.

    Either way, I doubt the Shan'iatu didn't know about Spirits and the Shadow, but I think it's likely that they thought the Shadow would be much harder to control than human ghosts, or perhaps Spirits- as pure Ephemeral Beings -can't provide the Sekhem the Shan'iatu desired. Perhaps most importantly, we really have no idea how powerful an unbroken and undiminished temakh is. Book of the Deceived only suggests it with the power of the fully unleashed Blessed is the God-King, and if Why The Stars Fall is any guideline, I'm not sure we'd want to see an undiminished temakh.

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  • atamajakki
    replied
    Father Wolf is dead for at least a thousand (more likely two thousand) years by the time of Irem's peak, but one would assume that if the Werewolves of the time before and after the Nameless Empire are stronger than their modern counterparts, then they'd likely be stronger during the time of the Empire as well.

    Anpu seems to have some lordship over Twilight/Neter-Khertet, but Mummy's handling of Twilight as a separate realm rather than as a sort of state of being doesn't fit neatly with the cosmology of the wider CofD. I guess it depends on rather or not the demons of Duat are spirits or not.

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  • reseru
    replied
    I think the death of Father Wolf was a long time before Irem was built and Sumer a long time after.

    At any rate, is not Anpu the lord of spirits or some such? Mummies generally don't handle with spirits but there's more than you might think to imply they weren't ignored

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  • atamajakki
    replied
    Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
    My assumption is that the Uratha were something akin to sacred slaves of the empire-the Shan'iatu has no obligation to teach them, but on the other hand, they serve functions.

    This, of course, presupposes that the Uratha didn't make a concerted rebellion action or something.
    At least according to the Forsaken Chronicler's Guide, the Forsaken of this time were much more potent, worshipped as divine and ruling openly as kings in Sumer. I don't see Irem easily conquering them, but more likely at constant war or else uneasy detente.

    Leave a comment:


  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    My assumption is that the Uratha were something akin to sacred slaves of the empire-the Shan'iatu has no obligation to teach them, but on the other hand, they serve functions.

    This, of course, presupposes that the Uratha didn't make a concerted rebellion action or something.

    Leave a comment:


  • Shock
    replied
    Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
    In regards to spirits, one thing you have to remember is that they exist on a different frequency from ghosts, and Irem's powersets were, well, necromantic rather than animistic. This isn't to suggest that they didn't know about spirits-they would probably know just because werewolves still happened and gave them insight into it. Why it wouldn't have come up as a subject for them to deal with is probably a mixture of some sort of use of the Uratha and the fact that most of the spirits work within their paradigm, with a dash of them probably only seeing the Claimed and Ridden as the bigger issue, which the Shan'iatu could handle.
    I'd figured that the Uratha were still in the fallout of their Fall and didn't have the numbers to deal with the Nameless Empire in it's prime. Also considering the projects that the Shan'iatu were focusing on, there is little incentive to mess with spirits at all other than to kill/put up barriers to drive them when they started to act up.

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  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    In regards to spirits, one thing you have to remember is that they exist on a different frequency from ghosts, and Irem's powersets were, well, necromantic rather than animistic. This isn't to suggest that they didn't know about spirits-they would probably know just because werewolves still happened and gave them insight into it. Why it wouldn't have come up as a subject for them to deal with is probably a mixture of some sort of use of the Uratha and the fact that most of the spirits work within their paradigm, with a dash of them probably only seeing the Claimed and Ridden as the bigger issue, which the Shan'iatu could handle.

    As for the Fae, every culture has it's boogeymen and demons that people must warn each other about. Irem might have been a safer city in it's way than most other cultures at the time, but their catalog of demons probably includes some fae. A Freehold that wanted to blend into the city could easily build off of Azar's story and just piggyback off of the city's systems.

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  • nofather
    replied
    I always thought Mummy was good for crossover, practically encouraged it what with them being basically homing beacons of power that can just 'pop up' in the middle of anyone's territory.

    As for the True Fae I'm sure Irem had its legends and folklore and stories about them.

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