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How long did the Nameless Empire last?

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  • How long did the Nameless Empire last?

    I know this has come up as a topic of discussion before, but I don't think there is a thread dedicated to it. How long did the Nameless Empire stick around for? I have it in my timeline for about 700 years, but Chronicles of Avirice makes me question that a bit. It sounded like the Heretic's father role as a tax. Collector was fairly new. That could put the Empire at a century or even less. What are your thoughts?

    Edit: Oooooo, idea! If the Nameless Empire lasted about 150 years, it would fill in the blind spot we have in history between the Fayum A Culture/Badri Culture with the Nubian A-Group Culture. I need to check the chronology of Book of the Decieved again!
    Last edited by Second Chances; 03-03-2016, 04:45 PM.


    CofD booklists:
    Beast I Changeling | Geist l Hunter l Mummy | Promethean

  • #2
    Funnily enough, nothing I read led me to be believe it was that low. I still reckon it hangs around in the 1000- to 1400-ish range.


    Sean K.I.W. Steele, Onyx Path Freelancer
    Working on:Night Horrors: Enemy Action
    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey

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    • #3
      I thought the books said the Nameless Empire Lasted 100 Years.


      It is a time for great deeds!

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      • #4
        My reading of the core book was that something close to Eldagusto. There are a couple of bits that mention the way that former tribal people were being made to fit into a hierarchical state; that people remember life before Irem. Now, obviously that could be just the fact that Irem is always bringing in new peoples, but the text gives me the impression that Irem is supposed to be this earth-shattering event almost; the meteoric rise of the worlds first empire. A thousand years blunts that paradigm shift somewhat.

        I admit that's just my general impression. It's more than possible that wasn't the authorial intent.

        Also, a thousand years is more difficult to cover up. I know it's magic, but I like leaving the window open for mortal archaeology having just missed a small period (with the option to maybe know a little about it).


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        • #5
          My reading was that between the crowning of Azar and the Rite of Return there was a single Sothic Turn. Since the Shan'iatu dispersed following the former event and convened only centuries laters when they raised the first pillar of Irem, it doesn't seem wrong to say the empire lasted for about a thousand years.

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          • #6
            That was also my reading; one Sothic Turn between Azar's murder and the Rite.
            The Rite, by the way, broke time, so I think both 100 and 1000 years, longer and less, are the correct answers. You don't know; those moments in history have been ravaged.
            I'd answer not with a number but with "long enough" or "about a Sothic Turn" or "why don't you ask the Black Hurriyah" or "Anpu knows." Something that seems evasive but, because the absoluteness that was the disaster the Rite made, is in fact concrete.


            My Promethean Homebrew.

            Yes, I made it the same way as a Promethean. No, the authorities haven't found me yet.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Michael View Post
              My reading of the core book was that something close to Eldagusto. There are a couple of bits that mention the way that former tribal people were being made to fit into a hierarchical state; that people remember life before Irem. Now, obviously that could be just the fact that Irem is always bringing in new peoples, but the text gives me the impression that Irem is supposed to be this earth-shattering event almost; the meteoric rise of the worlds first empire. A thousand years blunts that paradigm shift somewhat.

              I admit that's just my general impression. It's more than possible that wasn't the authorial intent.

              Also, a thousand years is more difficult to cover up. I know it's magic, but I like leaving the window open for mortal archaeology having just missed a small period (with the option to maybe know a little about it).
              That was my reading of it too. Some of it could just be Purple prose, but it makes sense to me.


              Originally posted by YeOfLittleFaith View Post
              My reading was that between the crowning of Azar and the Rite of Return there was a single Sothic Turn. Since the Shan'iatu dispersed following the former event and convened only centuries laters when they raised the first pillar of Irem, it doesn't seem wrong to say the empire lasted for about a thousand years.
              Do Irem and the Empire have to start at the same time? I have to read Book of the Deceived again, but it seems to me that the Shan'iatu went into hiding for something on the measure of 500 to 600 centuries at least, which would put the Empire at less than 1000 years. I'm not trying to be contrary, but I want to sort out the different ideas this is giving me.


              CofD booklists:
              Beast I Changeling | Geist l Hunter l Mummy | Promethean

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              • #8
                *shrug* Take a century or two, depending on how long you consider they went into hiding for. I tend to think four or five centuries. Obviously Irem didn't become an empire overnight, so if we wanted to be fair I would say that the Nameless Empire proper had a lifespan closer to six hundred years, give or take a couple, and its apex lasted notably less.
                Last edited by YeOfLittleFaith; 03-03-2016, 06:53 PM.

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                • #9
                  If I recall both Deceived and the core book correctly, the phrase "100 years" came up twice. One was in reference to how long Irem spent building its strength before the campaign of conquest, one was in reference to how long the Rite lasted when/as it broke time.

                  So it seems likely that the city lasted more than 100 years. It also reads like the expansion of the Empire was pretty freaking fast (it's not like they hit any resistance until they hit that rival empire whose name I am totally blanking on right now, and the Shan'iatu learned about the Rite at the moment that empire fell). So for the Empire itself, the ballpark 100 year estimate itself doesn't seem inaccurate, with another century before that for the construction of Irem itself.
                  Last edited by Azahul; 03-03-2016, 07:17 PM. Reason: Wrote "does" instead of "doesn't" and completely changed the meaning of my own conclusion. D'oh.

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                  • #10
                    Book of the Deceived talks about the Shan'iatu spending time among mortals and learning their vices; for beings that are functionally immortal, I don't see that happening in the span of a century.

                    The date of the Rite of Return is roughly correlated with the 5.9 kiloyear event, which (using the Sothic Turns as reference) would be 3832 BCE in Mummy. Neolithic Mage is set in 5500-5000 BCE according to Open Development, which is explicitly before the first pillar of Irem is raised. One Sothic Turn before the estimated Rite date would be 5293 BCE, which is right in the middle of Neolithic Mage. If Neolithic Mage gets pared down slightly, then that could very well work as a founding date for Irem.

                    I'm personally with YeOfLittleFaith on the "one Turn betwee Azar's murder and the Rite," but I don't know if there's evidence for that.


                    Just call me Lex.

                    Female pronouns for me, please.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by atamajakki View Post
                      Book of the Deceived talks about the Shan'iatu spending time among mortals and learning their vices; for beings that are functionally immortal, I don't see that happening in the span of a century.

                      The date of the Rite of Return is roughly correlated with the 5.9 kiloyear event, which (using the Sothic Turns as reference) would be 3832 BCE in Mummy. Neolithic Mage is set in 5500-5000 BCE according to Open Development, which is explicitly before the first pillar of Irem is raised. One Sothic Turn before the estimated Rite date would be 5293 BCE, which is right in the middle of Neolithic Mage. If Neolithic Mage gets pared down slightly, then that could very well work as a founding date for Irem.

                      I'm personally with YeOfLittleFaith on the "one Turn betwee Azar's murder and the Rite," but I don't know if there's evidence for that.
                      I recall there being something about Sothis being risen Azar was murdered in Book of the Deceived. Given that the Rite is Sothic Turn 0, that necessitates that Azar was murdered at Sothic Turn -1, and that he taught the Shan'iatu the six arts at Sothic Turn -2. Will double check.


                      CofD booklists:
                      Beast I Changeling | Geist l Hunter l Mummy | Promethean

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by atamajakki View Post
                        I'm personally with YeOfLittleFaith on the "one Turn betwee Azar's murder and the Rite," but I don't know if there's evidence for that.
                        You guys do remember the whole, "Fled into the desert and just tried to scare humans away from them" element of the post-Azar murder sequence, right? The Empire by that necessity could not have stood for an entire Turn.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Azahul View Post
                          You guys do remember the whole, "Fled into the desert and just tried to scare humans away from them" element of the post-Azar murder sequence, right? The Empire by that necessity could not have stood for an entire Turn.
                          No one ever said it stood for an entire Turn. Just the greater part of it, and that's including founding, ordering of the tribes, preparation for war, rapid expansion, enrichening and strengthening of the empire by collection of tribute, stagnation and revolt, war against the Ki-En-Gir, and the prelude to the Rite of Return, as well as the time it took to perform the rite itself. Just, we don't know for how many centuries exactly the Shan'iatu waited for Azar to call them to Duat before taking to action once more.
                          Last edited by YeOfLittleFaith; 03-03-2016, 09:03 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Azahul View Post
                            You guys do remember the whole, "Fled into the desert and just tried to scare humans away from them" element of the post-Azar murder sequence, right? The Empire by that necessity could not have stood for an entire Turn.
                            Sure, but that doesn't then narrow the remaining time down to a single century!


                            Just call me Lex.

                            Female pronouns for me, please.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by YeOfLittleFaith View Post

                              No one ever said it stood for an entire Turn. Just the greater part of it, and that's including founding, ordering of the tribes, preparation for war, rapid expansion, enrichening and strengthening of the empire by collection of tribute, stagnation and revolt, war against the Ki-En-Gir, and the prelude to the Rite of Return, as well as the time it took to perform the rite itself. Just, we don't know for how many centuries exactly the Shan'iatu waited for Azar to call them to Duat before taking to action once more.
                              It is most certainly impossible to know or sure. That's probably the intent of writing Mummy's backstory in that fashion. But, that disclaimer aside, I feel like the prelude to Empire is divided from Empire by an important distinction. Everything before the founding is moving on an impossible time scale, the whims of immortals. A thousand years could have passed with the Shan'iatu lurking in the desert, and they would see little reason to call attention to it. Once Irem was founded though, the scale moves to human lives, human years. Ordering the tribes and raising the pillars of Irem, the consolidation of the city's power, raising an army, the start of conquest, those are events that could occur across a single human's lifespan. It feels a lot easier for time to go drifting by before the Shan'iatu engage with humankind to any meaningful level.

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