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Who can be a Demiurge?

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  • Who can be a Demiurge?

    I've been thinking about a pair of NPC's for my setting, one of whom has brought the other back from the dead. I originally thought of making the returned one a vampire, but then I thought of making the character a Promethean. Now I realize that the Created hardly if at all remember who the bodies were they were formed from, but I wonder - could a mage or an occultist be a demiurge? Could such a character act as demiurge to, say, an ulgan? If this question has already been answered somewhere, I apologize, I onlyown the 1st edition core bok.

  • #2
    Yes, a mage or occultist can be a demiurge. In the 1e supplement Saturnine Night, it was explained that mages had to forego using magic in order to be a demiurge, and that successfully creating a Promethean put their connection to the Supernal at risk. 2e doesn't say anything about what happens to the demiurge, but says that the resulting Promethean is an Extempore.


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    • #3
      Two things:

      1. I have always hypothesized that Isis, the wife of Osiris and Progenitor of the Osiran Lineage, is a Thyrsus, and Inanna, the lover of Tammuz and Progenitor of the eponymous Lineage, was a Moros (I say was because I also believe she eventually transformed into a vampire and became the founder of the Daeva clan).

      2. Magical Traditions, in the section on Kabbalism, states that a mage with Matter 5 and Mind 5 can create a self-willed "golem," basically a Promethean made out of inanimate matter (I guess you would call it an Unfleshed in 2e terms). I believe that is exactly what Tammuz was--as a Moros, Matter 5 and Mind 5 would not have been out of the question for Inanna, given that she was powerful enough to be worshipped by the ancient Sumerians as a goddess.


      My name is Colleen. My favorite song is "Wildwood Flower." My ambition is to write the complete history of the White Wolf/Onyx Path universe.

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      • #4
        Substitute Life 5 for Matter 5 (as would be appropriate for a Thyrsus), and you have a regular Promethean--i.e. Osiris.


        My name is Colleen. My favorite song is "Wildwood Flower." My ambition is to write the complete history of the White Wolf/Onyx Path universe.

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        • #5
          Have fun with it in your games; but that's not how things work according to the rules as written. Note that Mage 1e's Tome of the Mysteries included a section on Alchemy which included rules for creating artificial beings; those beings were not Prometheans. They weren't animated by Azoth and weren't on a Pilgrimage. Mage 2e hasn't yet addressed the subject of Supernal Alchemy; but it looks like it might in the upcoming Signs of Sorcery supplement.


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          • #6
            Facts of 2E games are those:
            1. ANYBODY can be Demiurge, being able to channel Pyros - if creator is not typical genitor or human obsessed with Linage sources ( like rabbi with 'Jews golems' on Tammuz ), end result will probably be Extempore.
            2. Mages cannot directly, operate on Pyros Alchemy. They maybe make some modifications or changes to process, but those are limited. Azoth very much don't like Supernal Magic.
            3. Mages can create autonomic artificial servants - just see Golem spell in Matter 4 of 2E Mage corebook.

            Ergo, Awakened sorcerer can create 'robot' by Supernal Magic, but it will never start Pilgrimage on it's own. Or rather, if it will get Azoth, it will by blind choice of Principle ( i.e. Alchemical Gods ). Isis or Innana could be even Archmages by wizards standards, it does not change fact they cannot just 'spell' being to life. Only the will of Azoth and striking of Pyros can give real symbalance of life to previous 'robot'. / And I very like this scenraio, to you information. /

            If you want to know more on relations between Created Alchemy and mages Supernal Magic in 2E - I point you to the topic on this very idea, in Mage forums.


            Conquest of Paradise - Fan Dark Era about Portugal and Spain conquests in XVI century - Mage & Beast ( & Hunter )
            My Hubs - VtR 2E System Hacks, MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks

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            • #7
              I don't understand. Isn't any self-willed artificial being a Promethean, the same way any blood-drinking undead being is a Kindred?


              My name is Colleen. My favorite song is "Wildwood Flower." My ambition is to write the complete history of the White Wolf/Onyx Path universe.

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              • #8
                Wrong on both counts. There are self-willed artificial beings that aren't Prometheans, and there are blood-drinking undead beings that are not Kindred. The V1e supplement Wicked Dead gives some examples of the latter.

                More generally, do not assume that any given gameline portrays every type of classical monster that its protagonists are based on. Vampire deals with the Kindred, not every kind of vampire; Werewolf deals with the Uratha, not every werewolf; Mage deals with the Awakened, not every mage; and so on. Some come closer to having a monopoly than others; you're not going to find many changelings who aren't the Lost, but there are at least four known kinds of beings called demons, of which the Unbound are but one.

                ChroD supernatural types are representative, but not definitive; it's always possible to find exceptions or alternatives, because the premise is that it's never possible to know everything that's out there in the shadows.
                Last edited by Dataweaver; 12-16-2016, 04:49 PM.


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                • #9
                  Why can't a sufficiently powerful mage imbue a corpse or a statue with Azoth (or Pyros--are they the same thing?) and
                  make it a Promethean? Why in the world would you want to limit your Demiurge pool to people who DON'T have occult powers? Especially with a game system like Chronicles of Darkness, which encourages crossovers to begin with? Just wondering...
                  Last edited by JulianMoon; 12-16-2016, 04:47 PM.


                  My name is Colleen. My favorite song is "Wildwood Flower." My ambition is to write the complete history of the White Wolf/Onyx Path universe.

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                  • #10
                    It was established in an early Mage supplement that magic can't normally mess with most supernatural power or fuel stats, be it a Kindred's Blood Potency or Vitae, an Uratha's Primal Urge or Essence, or a Promethean's Azoth or Pyros. Short of archmastery, a mage can't mess with another being's “template”, whatever it is that makes it what it is. Making a Promethean was specifically called out as something that mages can't do; though when you think about it, that's merely an example of the general inability of magic to impose, remove, or alter templates.

                    In theory, an archmaster with seven dots in the appropriate Arcana could use magic to create a Promethean. Oddly though, while Imperial Mysteries lists the Arcana needed for most of the other gamelines in publication at the time, it's silent on what's needed for Prometheans. Some have taken this as an indication that even Archmasters don't know how to create Prometheans.
                    Last edited by Dataweaver; 12-16-2016, 05:06 PM.


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                    • #11
                      Dataweaver: Very good point in your edit. However, it seems to me that the problem here might be that some people might object to the idea that mages can literally create characters from other games. Am I correct, or am I missing the point?


                      My name is Colleen. My favorite song is "Wildwood Flower." My ambition is to write the complete history of the White Wolf/Onyx Path universe.

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                      • #12
                        So I was right...I have a feeling the designers were afraid mages would be too powerful compared to other splats if they didn't impose an artificial limitation...


                        My name is Colleen. My favorite song is "Wildwood Flower." My ambition is to write the complete history of the White Wolf/Onyx Path universe.

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                        • #13
                          I don't think it's an artificial limitation. And magic can create characters from other games; but you have to enter archmaster territory to do so.
                          Last edited by Dataweaver; 12-18-2016, 12:20 AM.


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                          • #14
                            So... my idea doesn't work, do I understand this correctly?

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                            • #15
                              Fair enough. In that case, both Isis and Inanna are Archmasters--a reasonable assumption, since both are worshipped as gods. Still, it troubles that an ordinary human with no supernatural traits can be a Demiurge, but a mage can't.


                              My name is Colleen. My favorite song is "Wildwood Flower." My ambition is to write the complete history of the White Wolf/Onyx Path universe.

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