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  • #16
    Originally posted by blackhatmatt View Post


    That's one of the reasons I don't want to include rules for playing them. They're the end of a chronicle, not the beginning.
    End of one, beginning of another?


    Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
    Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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    • #17
      Originally posted by blackhatmatt View Post


      That's one of the reasons I don't want to include rules for playing them. They're the end of a chronicle, not the beginning.
      End, beginning, potayto, potahto. Personally I find playable Redeemed a lot less interesting than Scions but then again I have players who find monster-lite and mortal characters more interesting than the main gribblies.

      Any chance we might get a Storyteller guide that addresses things like Scions and a Promethean equivalent to Revenants and/or Ghouls (the Homunculus thread has been most inspiring) sooner rather than later?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Vent0 View Post

        Why would it be? It's obviously a template you only apply to an existing character, so the only mechanical changes it needs to cover are deviations form the norm. As for creating one from scratch? Just through a bucket full of extra XP at them prior to adding the template.
        Yep, nope. You're kinda missing the point. Throwing XP at a character doesn't answer the "what kind of journey am I going to go on?" question. Better is the extremely subtle difference between the Stigmatic template and the Latent Demon-Blooded template. Little cues that hint at where a character may have already been and where they might yet go.

        So I'm -1 for playable Redeemed and +1 for a 2nd Ed take on Scions. (And really playable Alchemists seem to have more interesting story opportunities than a playable Redeemed, who has literally already been down this road.)

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        • #19
          Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
          Did a search on the topic, but just making sure - Scions are not statted out as a template as itself in 2E, right? Other than having "Immunity to Disquiet" somewhere on their character sheets, that is.
          Weren't Scions completely dropped as a concept entirely in 2e, as in not existing?


          Anways, on to something a bit more helpful. Fae-touched, ghouls (but not revenants), wolf-blooded, stigmatics/demon-born and sleepwalkers/proximi all have the same roles - they're assistants to main supernaturals. Fae-touched are bound by pledge to help a changeling for one reason or another. Ghouls are day-time servants. Wolf-blooded serve as pack that assist on the hunt or with rituals, but never the main force. And so on. That said, each servant-splat also has their own drawbacks that cause issues. Ghouls are addicts. Wolf-blooded tells all have unique drawbacks. Stigmatics freak out a lot, and demon-born are hacked by God. Sleepwalker and Proximi have magical backlashes. Its also notable that each servant-splat also has pseudo-abilities that reflect innate splats to a certain extent - clan, path, auspice, incarnation, etc.


          So, if you want to create a Scion, we're going to need several things. First, identify how this splat will fit into a subservant role. Second, what kind of drawbacks are we looking at? Each has a drawback that's closely related to the main splat's problems, but has a unique twist on it. How will the birthing-Lineage be reflected? Mini-bestowments? Athanors used to be a thing for creating a bit of an advantage as a human, so perhaps something along those lines.

          The biggest problem is trying to figure out what servant-role they'll fill. Remember, Prometheans are forced into a nomadic role, whereas most humans are not comfortable with that. Redeemed became redeemed so they'll have their own lives to live, not continue on with the Pilgrimage. Scions likewise have their lives to live.


          Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
          End of one, beginning of another?
          End of a Promethean Chronicle, at least. If you start up a new one, its no longer a Promethean game. If you make the new human flawed in some way such that they need to keep on the Pilgrimage, then that kind of hurts the entire idea of the New Dawn and undermines the entire game.
          Last edited by MCN; 12-22-2016, 10:15 AM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by MCN View Post
            Weren't Scions completely dropped as a concept entirely in 2e, as in not existing?


            Anways, on to something a bit more helpful. Fae-touched, ghouls (but not revenants), wolf-blooded, stigmatics/demon-born and sleepwalkers/proximi all have the same roles - they're assistants to main supernaturals. Fae-touched are bound by pledge to help a changeling for one reason or another. Ghouls are day-time servants. Wolf-blooded serve as pack that assist on the hunt or with rituals, but never the main force. And so on. That said, each servant-splat also has their own drawbacks that cause issues. Ghouls are addicts. Wolf-blooded tells all have unique drawbacks. Stigmatics freak out a lot, and demon-born are hacked by God. Sleepwalker and Proximi have magical backlashes. Its also notable that each servant-splat also has pseudo-abilities that reflect innate splats to a certain extent - clan, path, auspice, incarnation, etc.


            So, if you want to create a Scion, we're going to need several things. First, identify how this splat will fit into a subservant role. Second, what kind of drawbacks are we looking at? Each has a drawback that's closely related to the main splat's problems, but has a unique twist on it. How will the birthing-Lineage be reflected? Mini-bestowments? Athanors used to be a thing for creating a bit of an advantage as a human, so perhaps something along those lines.

            The biggest problem is trying to figure out what servant-role they'll fill. Remember, Prometheans are forced into a nomadic role, whereas most humans are not comfortable with that. Redeemed became redeemed so they'll have their own lives to live, not continue on with the Pilgrimage. Scions likewise have their lives to live.
            Not too fond of the "servant/assistant" contextualization. It only fully fits Ghouls, and maybe Fae-touched. Wolf-blooded can (and do) exist independently from Packs, and the same with Sleepwalkers, Stigmatics, Proximi. They are useful to the main splats as aides, but they can possess identity and function separate from a servitor role.

            Really, they seem to be more of a "bridge" or "half", being mostly mortal/normal, but with influence of the supernatural in question. And on that note, a Scion could serve as a link between Prometheans and Humanity - being able to not get hate-plagued by Disquiet, but still being human themselves.

            And if you need to fit them into a servant role, well, who better to act as steward of your works than someone who can talk to others without freaking them out and to you without themselves freaking out?


            Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
            Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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            • #21
              Rather than quote you both I'll just make a simple and straight-forward post. I like the idea that Scions aren't affected by Disquiet. An interesting add-on to this might be if they caused their own version of Disquiet in Prometheans, making them have to face Torment more frequently even as they smooth the Pilgrimage by providing a steady point of reference. This might let them serve the story role of "I finally have someone to talk to and try to emulate but why do I suddenly want to strangle them?" for the Promethean character(s).

              Just some random thoughts anyway. I really see the Homunculus as having a better potential to fulfill the "servant" role. Scions might be best used in the "true friend" and "touchstone" roles. And ultimately both will provide useful tools for telling Promethean stories.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
                Not too fond of the "servant/assistant" contextualization.
                Whatever your feelings, its truth. Sleepwalkers are literally designed, from a game standpoint, to be mage assistants. Even more, its the comparison that David Brookshaw made. Flat out said that Sleepwalkers are ghoul-equivalents. Wolf-blooded are designed to be first and foremost packmembers - the majority of the word count in the Wolf-blooded chapter makes that assumption. Sure, some can be isolated, but there are also rogue ghouls as well, and clearly ghouls are meant to be assistants.

                Oh, certainly, some might not call these half-splats assistants or servants from an in-character perspective, but that's doesn't change their purpose from a game design standpoint. They are designed to fill a necessary niche in the society of the supernatural in question.

                And, no, that niche is not as a bridges. That's literally what Touchstones are for. While you can be a ghoul/wolf-blood/etc and Touchstone at the same time, most are not. Its the exception, not the rule.

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                • #23
                  And that's why a traditional “minor template” is such an awkward fit for Promethean: they don't lend themselves very well to being masters.

                  Of course, this wouldn't be the first time that the game breaks with tradition. Promethean was the first gameline where the protagonists started out as monsters, with no human experience preceding them; and even now, only mummies and demons come close to challenging Prometheans' monopoly on that particular break. So just because every other gameline has featured a lesser template that acts as a servant of assistant, that doesn't mean that Promethean has to follow suit.

                  Personally, I see alchemists filling that “lesser template” role. Sure, they're antagonistic as presented in the core book; but they don't have to be; and the ones that aren't are going to be as close to kindred spirits as a Promethean is ever likely to encounter.


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                    And that's why a traditional “minor template” is such an awkward fit for Promethean: they don't lend themselves very well to being masters.

                    Of course, this wouldn't be the first time that the game breaks with tradition. Promethean was the first gameline where the protagonists started out as monsters, with no human experience preceding them; and even now, only mummies and demons come close to challenging Prometheans' monopoly on that particular break. So just because every other gameline has featured a lesser template that acts as a servant of assistant, that doesn't mean that Promethean has to follow suit.

                    Personally, I see alchemists filling that “lesser template” role. Sure, they're antagonistic as presented in the core book; but they don't have to be; and the ones that aren't are going to be as close to kindred spirits as a Promethean is ever likely to encounter.
                    Except, aren't Alchemists still subject to Disquiet? And conceptually, Alchemists seem to be coming at Prometheans from the opposite direction (casting aside their inherent Humanity for change/power).


                    Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                    Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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                    • #25
                      Disquiet has largely been defanged in 2e, with the cap on how high it can go without Wasteland allowing it to intensify. Also, the description you're providing it the default “insatiate alchemist” from the core book. Not every alchemist matches that description; in particular, there's nothing about being an alchemist that forces you to trade humanity for power.


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                      • #26
                        I still want to see Prometheans 'babies' - it's just sooo adore concept. Also, having rules for playing Redeemed from the start would be nice - but this probably simply work as 'good' Alchemist character with weird memories.


                        MtAw 2E - My Legacies Updates and System Hacks Hubs
                        MtAw - Children of the Stars - aliens loving Legacy
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                        • #27
                          This all compelled me to go back and read Magnum Opus' section on Scions again (it's been a while!). So: It's not so much that they've been "removed" from 2e; like just about everything else in Magnum Opus, Scions weren't meant to be a regular feature of Promethean, but rather something weird and interesting that troupes could include if they wanted to. As such, like, feel free to do that! It's not like they were mechanically complicated to start with (they're immune to Disquiet and they can sense Azoth, OK).

                          Of greater import is the role they'd play in a Promethean chronicle, and there we run into a little bit of a hurdle. Wood (Ingham, one of the original Frankenstein Brigade) had a character in his chronicle who "achieved" the New Dawn by becoming a statue and removing him(?)self from human society entirely. That's awesome and the stories Wood wrote about it were moving - but it's an example of something you can do during a PtC game, not something I'd expect as a baseline. Scions are the same way - a Promethean fathering a child, birthing a child, becoming spontaneously pregnant, whatever, exploring that territory in Promethean works best if it's rare, unexpected, even unique. If we do a whole big section on it in the context of "yeah, Prometheans totally have kids, they're just like ghouls or wolf-blooded," we lose all of their narrative impact.

                          If I ever get to do a Player's Guide for PtC (fingers crossed!) I'm totally doing up rules for playable Alchemists, because that makes sense; there's nothing inherently evil about them, we just chose to focus on the ones that act as antagonists. But we're not doing Redeemed as a playable character (because that, to me, shortchanges the whole point of a Promethean game) or Scions (for reasons previously discussed).

                          You, however, can and should do whatever you want in your game to make it more awesome and satisfying, and I encourage you to post about those games!


                          Matthew McFarland
                          Writer, developer, etc.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by blackhatmatt View Post
                            This all compelled me to go back and read Magnum Opus' section on Scions again (it's been a while!). So: It's not so much that they've been "removed" from 2e; like just about everything else in Magnum Opus, Scions weren't meant to be a regular feature of Promethean, but rather something weird and interesting that troupes could include if they wanted to. As such, like, feel free to do that! It's not like they were mechanically complicated to start with (they're immune to Disquiet and they can sense Azoth, OK).

                            Of greater import is the role they'd play in a Promethean chronicle, and there we run into a little bit of a hurdle. Wood (Ingham, one of the original Frankenstein Brigade) had a character in his chronicle who "achieved" the New Dawn by becoming a statue and removing him(?)self from human society entirely. That's awesome and the stories Wood wrote about it were moving - but it's an example of something you can do during a PtC game, not something I'd expect as a baseline. Scions are the same way - a Promethean fathering a child, birthing a child, becoming spontaneously pregnant, whatever, exploring that territory in Promethean works best if it's rare, unexpected, even unique. If we do a whole big section on it in the context of "yeah, Prometheans totally have kids, they're just like ghouls or wolf-blooded," we lose all of their narrative impact.

                            If I ever get to do a Player's Guide for PtC (fingers crossed!) I'm totally doing up rules for playable Alchemists, because that makes sense; there's nothing inherently evil about them, we just chose to focus on the ones that act as antagonists. But we're not doing Redeemed as a playable character (because that, to me, shortchanges the whole point of a Promethean game) or Scions (for reasons previously discussed).

                            You, however, can and should do whatever you want in your game to make it more awesome and satisfying, and I encourage you to post about those games!
                            Definitely understandable in that context.

                            Is there any chance we might see some other rules-requiring oddity like a Revenant-equivalent, or more persistent/independent "Pyros-wisps"? People given some kind of one-off power by a Firestorm?


                            Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                            Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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                            • #29
                              This is why I was steering clear of scions for the most part. That; and to me, the most interesting thing about scions aren't the scions themselves, but rather the Pilgrimage opportunities they represent. Siring or birthing a scion would definitely be a superlative multiplicatio Milestone; and raising a scion is something that only a rare few Roles even touch upon (e.g., Leader and Bodyguard), and which Prometheans in general are woefully unprepared to do, given that they're struggling to figure out this whole “humanity” thing themselves: there are likely to be things that the scion will understand instinctively that his parent will have to learn the hard way.

                              In that regard, the immunity to Disquiet that scions are given in Magnum Opus is primarily there for the utterly utilitarian purpose of facilitating parent/child interactions: imagine the utter tragedy if your baby's mind was warped by your mere presence. A Promethean father might be able to cope by parenting from afar; but a Promethean mother would be stuck in close proximity to her baby throughout the pregnancy. If not for the immunity to Disquiet, abandoning the newborn infant would arguably be an act of mercy.

                              As for Redeemed, you don't really need rules for them; the core book already gives nearly everything you need. And they can be perfectly playable options; in particular, the “remember the Pilgrimage” option is one way for a player to continue to participate in a Chronicle after his Promethean has achieved the New Dawn. (Personally, I hope that this is something else the fingers-crossed Player's Guide will address: what to do after your character has crossed the finish line.) Given the implication that the “Remember the Pilgrimage” option is supposed to remain an active part of the Chronicle, at least for a little bit longer, I'd grant immunity to Disquiet to any Redeemed who chooses that option.
                              Last edited by Dataweaver; 12-23-2016, 04:33 PM.


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                              • #30
                                Ah, I'm glad I made this post Thank you all for your input

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