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  • #16
    So riffing off this from the V for Vendetta thread:
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    What I see in story is that V could work as Promethean - probably Extempore - with interesting take on making humans themselves more human on his Pilgrimage.
    ... Might a failed Refinement hold that a Promethean must make a great mark upon the world, the way humans have. Either shaping human society in some way, or perhaps the human environment. One great work to prepare for another. It's a big ask for a single human, let alone a single being learning to be. And is likely to go disastrously wrong. But it is what demiurges, qashmal, firestorms, and humans do - a Promethean might find the idea of doing the same compelling.

    Maybe Platinum? Very valuable metal that's also a catalyst. Mesmerism seems a logical Transmutation, but I'm not sure what the other should be.

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    • #17
      Maybe Disquietism?

      Mesmerism and Disquietism are the two Transmutations that are the most likely to drive a human to action. Platinum Followers could be both the angel and the devil on your shoulders, nudging your emotions and redirecting your spite, surfing on positive or negative tides of emotions alike to promulgate their worldview. Also, that would make them pretty powerless in most other situations: they couldn't hide like an Aurum, transmute themselves, or enhance their perceptions. All they could rely on is their silver tongue.

      That would also play with the V for Vendetta reference, as turmoil, rebellion, and the concern of V for those branded "Undesirables" all fit inside the idea I made himself of Disquiet.

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      • #18
        Makes sense.

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        • #19
          What about Stibium, the Refinement of Kohl and Words? The guiding principle of this Refinement would be understanding humanity through narrative -- books, plays, movies, whatever medium you want. Its obvious failure mode would be a Promethean (Poet? Librarian? Critic?) who dives so deep into fiction they become isolated from actual humanity. Which could just be socially isolated (Netflix binging taken to an extreme) or divorced from reality (It works in the movies, it should work in real life!).

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          • #20
            Staying too long in a Role is a failure state on the Pilgrimmage. But humans stay in roles for long periods all the time. And their philosophies praise it, even - "finding your place in the world" and all that. So a failed Refinement might revolve around finding a niche and endlessly trying to perfect it in the hopes that mortality will follow when they get it right. Forgetting that humans are starting from a very different place.

            A grisly failure state that Prometheans with Spare Parts might have is a quest for just the right parts. Keep changing your body up until you hit the sweet combination, and mortality will come.

            A Promethean might believe that mortality cannot be taken or found, only given. A human - or small group of them - must love the Promethean enough to, in a sense, share their soul with them. A variant on this idea might be that any strong relationship will do, even deadly hatred.

            A failed analogue of Phosphor might overexaggerate its fightly nature, pursuing experience after experience without staying still to learn anything from it - do everything that humans do, and you'll become human in the end.

            Or a Promethean might believe the key is the life of person from whose body they were made - immerse yourself in that light and it will give you mortality - indeed, perhaps some believe they really are that person reborn. Prometheans made from multiple people might have a variant where they live each life in turn. (Like the Spare Parts idea, this won't work for all Lineages, but not all failed Refinements need be available to all Prometheans).

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            • #21
              Originally posted by SunlessNick View Post
              If I remember correctly, salt was considered the most inert form of matter. That could be the "refinement" that essentially gives up on the Pilgrimmage and tries to make the best of being a Promethean, without hope for anything more.

              That's basically getting stuck in Plumbum.

              edit: and based on your choice of Transmutations for them, I see you're thinking in the same direction. Salt under this thinking would be a failure offshoot of Plumbum, the way Pneuma is off of Aurum.
              Last edited by glamourweaver; 02-13-2018, 02:48 AM.


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              • #22
                Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
                edit: and based on your choice of Transmutations for them, I see you're thinking in the same direction. Salt under this thinking would be a failure offshoot of Plumbum, the way Pneuma is off of Aurum.
                Pretty much yeah. It seems like tying to make a "complex extension" of one of the basic Refinements would be a relatively common source of failure.

                My post prior to yours suggested a Promethean with Spare Parts swapping out bits of their body in the hopes of getting just the right combination to facilitate mortality, which could be considered a failed Ferrum.

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                • #23
                  Over on a Geist thread, regarding why other supernaturals might join a krewe of Bound, marin said this:
                  Originally posted by marin View Post
                  Promethean: You see the opportunity to learn how death shapes human lives, both before and after. You see the opportunity to learn about humanity from those who have already passed through it.
                  And it struck me you could make a failed Refinement off of this, an Aurum/Argentum mix, perhaps. Ghosts are not just dead humans or the echoes and reflections of them - they are born from the most extreme obsessions and intense of catastrophes, showcasing what humanity finds so central to itself as to lend expression after death. What better place could there be to learn about mortality than the testimony of the dead? It fails, because ghosts' obsessions do not a complete life or psyche make, but it seems like a trap Prometheans could easily fall into once they know ghosts exist.

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                  • #24
                    I see that as pure Argentum: that Refinement is fundamentally about learning about humanity by learning about its supernatural offshoots. Studying ghosts to learn about the humanity they came from is very much an Argentum thing.

                    So how would this failed Refinement differ from that?


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                    • #25
                      And it struck me you could make a failed Refinement off of this, an Aurum/Argentum mix, perhaps. Ghosts are not just dead humans or the echoes and reflections of them - they are born from the most extreme obsessions and intense of catastrophes, showcasing what humanity finds so central to itself as to lend expression after death. What better place could there be to learn about mortality than the testimony of the dead? It fails, because ghosts' obsessions do not a complete life or psyche make, but it seems like a trap Prometheans could easily fall into once they know ghosts exist.
                      That could be really interesting. I can only imagine the popularity of this Refinements amongst Ulgan (who are already close to the immaterial) and Osirans (who litteraly believe themselves the Lords over all Dead).

                      To distinguish it from the regular Argentum analysis, we could make it some kind of Capgras Delusion deal: rather than trying to build a personality for himself, Prometheans following this Refinement would start to believe themselves to be the ghost (or the undead form) of the human that was used to create her. Cue the Galateid trying to learn about the life of the TV star ze was in zir former life, and trying to deal with unfinished business of said person to "resolve zir Anchors". Cue the Osiran, trying to remain in the Underworld for too long after having been sent to one of the Rivers, and triggering the Old Laws because of that.

                      As for the name, I could easily see this refinement as this of Ashes (Cineres).

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                        I see that as pure Argentum: that Refinement is fundamentally about learning about humanity by learning about its supernatural offshoots. Studying ghosts to learn about the humanity they came from is very much an Argentum thing.
                        Because learning about ghosts isn't the point, only who the ghosts were when they were alive. A follower of Argentum doesn't concentrate only on who a supernatural was before the event that changed them.

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                        • #27
                          A follower of Argentum doesn't concentrate only on who a supernatural was before the event that changed them.
                          Oooh, that gives me an idea...

                          Adamas, Refinement of Diamond and Fanaticism: Practitioners of this Refinement have a clear, albeit radical view of the World of Darkness, fueled by both the occult interest of Argentum and the flaw-correction take of Cobalus, but in essence a corruption of both their teachings. In their minds, it is simple: all major splats of the World of Darkness - all supernatural beings that were human at some point, that is - are Promethean Lineages. Just like Extempore, they are severed from the Azothic Memory by the strangeness of their Divine Fire. The members of this Refinement, the Fascists, are quick to explain every characteristic of other splats : Werewolf Rage is Torment, Mage Paradox is just a particularly tricky kind of Firestorm, Strix are immaterial Pandorans, etc.

                          But most of all, as they don't follow the Pilgrimage, all of these creatures are Centimani, and should be treated as such. At least, that's what the Fascists infer.

                          Fascists want to putsch the whole World of Darkness, no less. By might, guile and propaganda, they intend to force every supernatural creature to accept the Pilgrimage as their sole moral code and guideline, and to work towards becoming human. It's the only way.
                          Last edited by Adrasalieth; 07-19-2018, 02:10 PM.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Adrasalieth View Post

                            Oooh, that gives me an idea...

                            Adamas, Refinement of Diamond and Fanaticism: Practitioners of this Refinement have a clear, albeit radical view of the World of Darkness, fueled by both the occult interest of Argentum and the flaw-correction take of Cobalus, but in essence a corruption of both their teachings. In their minds, it is simple: all major splats of the World of Darkness (all supernatural beings that were human at some point, that is) are Promethean Lineages. Just like Extempore, they are severed from the Azothic Memory by the strangeness of their Divine Fire. The members of this Refinement, the Fascists, are quick to explain every characteristic of other splats : Werewolf Rage is Torment, Mage Paradox is just a particularly tricky kind of Firestorm, Strix are immaterial Pandorans, etc.

                            But most of all, as they don't follow the Pilgrimage, all of these creatures are Centimani, and should be treated as such. At least, that's what the Fascists infer.

                            Fascists want to putsch the whole World of Darkness, no less. By power and guile, they intend to force every supernatural creature to comply to take the Pilgrimage as their sole moral code and guideline, and to work towards becoming human. It's the only way.
                            Well, can they really be Fascists when they don’t carry the fervor of the masses with them? (I guess the Divine Fire provides enough fever, but still )

                            Great idea regardless. Reminds me of the “everything’s from the Supernal” thought exercise back in Mage 1E. (Which unfortunately went a bit beyond a thought exercise for some, but I digress)


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                            • #29
                              Hey heres everything that still needs to be done
                              Speculum
                              , the Refinment of Mirrors and Dialectic. The combination of the contrary, manipulative side of a Cathar, with the knowledge about the Created's condition of an Originist. Usually known as smug, cocky, annoyingly charismatic bastards, the Logicians are known for their mastery of rhetoric, and their quickness to point out flaws in one's train of thought. Although they turn their legendary sarcasm to anyone at range, they most specifically use those tools to point out the fallacies and potential drifts of other Refinments - those branded as "failed"-, and lead their practitioners to change path.

                              Ironically for a Refinment so bent on removing flaws, the Refinment could also be considered a failed Refinment. its practitioners soon find that all the ideals of each Refinment can be flawed at some point, and many deduce that the Pilgrimage itself has no rational grounds. Therefore, there would be no real objection to the Centimani's creed...
                              Needs Transmutation

                              Platinum Followers(V For Vendetta Refinment)
                              Needs Name
                              What about Stibium, the Refinement of Kohl and Words? The guiding principle of this Refinement would be understanding humanity through narrative -- books, plays, movies, whatever medium you want. Its obvious failure mode would be a Promethean (Poet? Librarian? Critic?) who dives so deep into fiction they become isolated from actual humanity. Which could just be socially isolated (Netflix binging taken to an extreme) or divorced from reality (It works in the movies, it should work in real life!).
                              Needs Transmutation
                              Staying too long in a Role is a failure state on the Pilgrimmage. But humans stay in roles for long periods all the time. And their philosophies praise it, even - "finding your place in the world" and all that. So a failed Refinement might revolve around finding a niche and endlessly trying to perfect it in the hopes that mortality will follow when they get it right. Forgetting that humans are starting from a very different place.

                              A grisly failure state that Prometheans with Spare Parts might have is a quest for just the right parts. Keep changing your body up until you hit the sweet combination, and mortality will come.

                              A Promethean might believe that mortality cannot be taken or found, only given. A human - or small group of them - must love the Promethean enough to, in a sense, share their soul with them. A variant on this idea might be that any strong relationship will do, even deadly hatred.

                              A failed analogue of Phosphor might overexaggerate its fightly nature, pursuing experience after experience without staying still to learn anything from it - do everything that humans do, and you'll become human in the end.

                              Or a Promethean might believe the key is the life of person from whose body they were made - immerse yourself in that light and it will give you mortality - indeed, perhaps some believe they really are that person reborn. Prometheans made from multiple people might have a variant where they live each life in turn. (Like the Spare Parts idea, this won't work for all Lineages, but not all failed Refinements need be available to all Prometheans).
                              Needs Name and Transmutation
                              Ashes(Cineres)
                              Needs Transmutation
                              Adamas, Refinement of Diamond and Fanaticism: Practitioners of this Refinement have a clear, albeit radical view of the World of Darkness, fueled by both the occult interest of Argentum and the flaw-correction take of Cobalus, but in essence a corruption of both their teachings. In their minds, it is simple: all major splats of the World of Darkness - all supernatural beings that were human at some point, that is - are Promethean Lineages. Just like Extempore, they are severed from the Azothic Memory by the strangeness of their Divine Fire. The members of this Refinement, the Fascists, are quick to explain every characteristic of other splats : Werewolf Rage is Torment, Mage Paradox is just a particularly tricky kind of Firestorm, Strix are immaterial Pandorans, etc.

                              But most of all, as they don't follow the Pilgrimage, all of these creatures are Centimani, and should be treated as such. At least, that's what the Fascists infer.

                              Fascists want to putsch the whole World of Darkness, no less. By might, guile and propaganda, they intend to force every supernatural creature to accept the Pilgrimage as their sole moral code and guideline, and to work towards becoming human. It's the only way.

                              Needs Transmutation







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                              • #30
                                Um, you might want to think of a different name for the Refinement of Mirrors and Dialetic. Speculum also is the name of a gynecological tool


                                A god is just a monster you kneel to. - ArcaneArts, Quoting "Fall of Gods"

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