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[2E] Tammuz vs Unfleshed

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  • [2E] Tammuz vs Unfleshed

    I’m just after reading Linages section of new corebook and have some a bit problem with Tammuz and Unfleshed – they sound as very much the same ( beside one made of bodies and other from automatons ). Before reading Linages section I thought that in 2E Tammuz will be more about power of words and Unfleshed will be about slavery. Actual write-ups in corebook points Tammuz to be obsessed with work they need to do, so I thought – ‘Hey, probably Unfleshed are more centered on passive take that leads them to be universal slaves – that they want to be exploited by others.’ But non of this come to be true – actual write up sounds as Unfleshed are ‘Tammuz 2.0’, wanting to make more work they were Created for but also do not wanting to exploited.

    Before reading corebook I was having thought experiment that would point me changes in both Linages – ‘What would be Prague’s Golem – Tammuz or Unfleshed?’ I was hoping that new core would explain this to me, pointing to sharper differences between those two groups. For now, Unfleshed sounds more as ‘Constructs’ from Tammuz, than truly different Linage - or Tammuz are to little changed in regions of being dedicated to language. ( For what is Construct see sidebar on page 76 of PtC 2E. )


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  • #2
    Myself, to truly distinguish both Linages, I would make Tammuz Generative Act to be BOUND by the Word ( yes, just like with Golem story ). Each new Tammuz would have 'life purpose', written in his Word he get's from creator, and just like in Golem story - he can change it if he change the Word's meaning.

    Many Tammuz could have words like 'work' or 'farming', leading to general archetype of Tammuz to be dedicated to their work,


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    • #3
      I think the distinction you're missing is that Tammuz are created to do work - not necessarily any specific work, just work in general. Whereas Unfleshed are created to serve a specific purpose - that purpose doesn't necessarily need to be work related. Yes, there is potential crossover when the purpose an Unfleshed is created for involves manual labor, especially building. But that's a very limited subset of what an Unfleshed might be built for. Likewise, work is a very limited subset of the Tammuz concept. Yes, they're created as laborers and driven to labor, but their connection to language is perhaps more central to their concept, and that is completely separate from Unfleshed.


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      • #4
        I'm trying to keep an open mind about this; but: aren't all Prometheans created with a purpose in mind? (Except the Extempore, of course.)

        The sidebar about Constructs vs. Unfleshed suggests that the difference between an Unfleshed and a Tammuz Construct might have more to do with the intent: that Unfleshed were never intended to be human, but that the other Lineages were. That's possibly a better way to distinguish them; but it still strikes me as hair-splitting.

        I'll reread the section to see if I can get more clarity on the subject; but as things stand right now, I'm thinking that I'm probably going to drop the Unfleshed as a separate Lineage and instead just fold them into the Construct mechanics (which I haven't yet found in 2e).


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        • #5
          Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
          I'm trying to keep an open mind about this; but: aren't all Prometheans created with a purpose in mind? (Except the Extempore, of course.)

          The sidebar about Constructs vs. Unfleshed suggests that the difference between an Unfleshed and a Tammuz Construct might have more to do with the intent: that Unfleshed were never intended to be human, but that the other Lineages were. That's possibly a better way to distinguish them; but it still strikes me as hair-splitting.

          I'll reread the section to see if I can get more clarity on the subject; but as things stand right now, I'm thinking that I'm probably going to drop the Unfleshed as a separate Lineage and instead just fold them into the Construct mechanics (which I haven't yet found in 2e).
          For what it's worth, I've been considering dropping the Unfleshed as a lineage of its own and just making oil a humor that replaces that of any lineage when the raw materials are non-biological. I'm reserving judgment for now though as I'm still making slow progress and don't quite have the big picture yet.


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          • #6
            Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
            I'm trying to keep an open mind about this; but: aren't all Prometheans created with a purpose in mind? (Except the Extempore, of course.)

            The sidebar about Constructs vs. Unfleshed suggests that the difference between an Unfleshed and a Tammuz Construct might have more to do with the intent: that Unfleshed were never intended to be human, but that the other Lineages were. That's possibly a better way to distinguish them; but it still strikes me as hair-splitting.

            I'll reread the section to see if I can get more clarity on the subject; but as things stand right now, I'm thinking that I'm probably going to drop the Unfleshed as a separate Lineage and instead just fold them into the Construct mechanics (which I haven't yet found in 2e).
            There aren't any Construct mechanics.


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            • #7
              That's what I figured. Hopefully, that will be corrected in a supplement, preferably in the player's guide.


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              • #8
                To me, real problem is 'Tammuz as language connected Linage' recast in 2E is, in the end, to sum up as 'they stutter sometimes'.

                It's like Tammuz were left with they whole baggage of 1E take, slapt sentence of 'and they are having speech problems' at the end and be done. And there are added in corebook Unfleshed that look like exist in the same niche as 1E Tammuz.

                I think that 2E Tammuz should be more 'word related' as concept to be truly unique Linage, now they are seems doubled with Unfleshed as written.
                Last edited by wyrdhamster; 08-05-2016, 04:16 PM.


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                • #9
                  I think the salient difference is that a worker is not necessarily a servant or slave. Indeed, if you want creepy, you might ask what the difference between a Galateid and an Unfleshed RealDoll™ is.

                  An Unfleshed was built with purpose, but that purpose is not why he is alive. The story of an Unfleshed is one of transcending emplaced strictures.
                  A Tammuz was made to live on purpose, but there was never any expected purpose beyond that. The story of a Tammuz is one of recognizing that there's a world beyond work.


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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                    That's what I figured. Hopefully, that will be corrected in a supplement, preferably in the player's guide.
                    I don't think so. the Unfleshed Lineage is written with the intent of covering "constructs". The assumption of Chronicles of Darkness is that Promethean stories that refer to inanimate creation that aren't Unfleshed are warped in the telling. If Pinnochio is a Promethean and not Unfleshed than Geppeto was probably a serial killer.


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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
                      I don't think so. the Unfleshed Lineage is written with the intent of covering "constructs". The assumption of Chronicles of Darkness is that Promethean stories that refer to inanimate creation that aren't Unfleshed are warped in the telling. If Pinnochio is a Promethean and not Unfleshed than Geppeto was probably a serial killer.
                      Then why even have the sidebar? Have all constructs be Unfleshed or don't, but at least pick one and stick with it.


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                      • #12
                        It's worth noting that the Tammuz's problem with language is not merely just a matter of speech and textual comprehension, but is a tip of an iceberg concerning the powers of control by limiting education. The Tammuz's labor is both a metaphysical support beam, giving them an intrinsic point of satisfaction and connection with humanity, and a perpetual engine of thorns in their side, being metaphysically held back from liberating education by their own limitations causing them to settle for labor, which keeps their focus from the more intellectual(airy) pursuits and aspects of the human state.

                        In contrast, the Unfleshed have all the information in the world. THey often have no problem learning, and in fact are in a position as a liminal space between ideas and expressions-they are masks and gloves to give face and hands to the incomprehensible. The problem is that they tend to be hyper-specialized and have trouble seeing themselves as bridges for anything outside of their purview-a Vocaloid given life has trouble grasping the idea they could, for instance, be a mathematician or theoretical physics researcher. They might actually know the myriad ways they can piece together vocal music elements, and maybe even instrumental music elements as an side-hell, maybe even open source entertainment via how to effectively use social media and other related things, and they'll be more than happy to work within that sphere-but going beyond it seems impossible to them, because their hyperfocus has limited to just one thing. And all of this is ignoring that sometimes things can be done without purpose.

                        These are just some light points on the distinctions between the two on the subject of labor and what their limitations mean, but for now, the simple way to put it is one is metaphysically restrained by a symbolic impediment to education, while the other is restrained by their extensive-but-narrow set of education.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                          It's worth noting that the Tammuz's problem with language is not merely just a matter of speech and textual comprehension, but is a tip of an iceberg concerning the powers of control by limiting education. The Tammuz's labor is both a metaphysical support beam, giving them an intrinsic point of satisfaction and connection with humanity, and a perpetual engine of thorns in their side, being metaphysically held back from liberating education by their own limitations causing them to settle for labor, which keeps their focus from the more intellectual(airy) pursuits and aspects of the human state.
                          Maybe I'm too simple for this metaphor but 'speech impediment' and 'love to work' don't mesh nicely in Tammuz. I would be much more happier of Tammuz by bound by Creation-Word and need to 'outgrown it' by understanding that language is complex structure and meaning is all that matters and words meaning is ever evolving. It would make start Tammuz single purpose, but also make them complex characters with more and more Pilgrimage. Quickly, Unfleshed and Tammuz then will be totally diffrent characters, not necessary dedicated to work.
                          Last edited by wyrdhamster; 08-06-2016, 01:14 AM.


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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                            Then why even have the sidebar? Have all constructs be Unfleshed or don't, but at least pick one and stick with it.
                            Page 76. And no, having both Unfleshed and constructs is good thing - problem is that Unfleshed are not really distinctive Linage as it is, just 'mechanical constructs of Tammuz'. To make this work, each Linage must be unique.


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                            • #15
                              What Arc is saying here is that it's not "speech impediment" coupled with "love to work" at all. It's a metaphor for the underprivileged working class.

                              They struggle with language not because of mental or physical disability, but because their position as laborers does not provide them the opportunity to seek education in more cerebral pursuits such as linguistics. In fact, their writeup makes it clear that when they do gain a grasp of it, they often become more skilled with language than the Prometheans to whom it comes naturally. So it's clear they're supremely capable of language, they just aren't created with the privelage of the requisite knowledge to excel at it. They have to seek that knowledge out on their own. Which is made all the more difficult due to the fact that they are created into a caste that isn't expected to have lingustic skill, doesn't require lingustic skill to fulfill its role, and generally doesn't present opportunities to hone lingustic skill.
                              Last edited by Charlaquin; 08-06-2016, 02:03 AM.


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