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[2E] Tammuz vs Unfleshed

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  • #16
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    Page 76. And no, having both Unfleshed and constructs is good thing - problem is that Unfleshed are not really distinctive Linage as it is, just 'mechanical constructs of Tammuz'. To make this work, each Linage must be unique.
    I was responding specifically to glamourweaver with that post. They made the argument that Constructs don't need mechanics because stories of Created that aren't made of human tissue are either about Unfleshed, or sanitized versions of what really happened. I disagree because if that were the case, there would be no need for Constructs at all. If Promethean wants Constructs and Unfleshed existing side by side, that's a valid choice. If Promethean wants all Created that aren't Unfleshed to be made of actual bodies, that's also a valid choice. But the game should pick one choice and commit to it, instead of acting as though all inorganic Prometheans are Unfleshed and tossing in a sidebar saying "oh, and if you want to make non-Unfleshed Constructs, knock yourself out" without giving actual support to that option.


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    • #17
      Prometheans mean things, as it turns out.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
        Prometheans mean things, as it turns out.
        I'm going to be honest, the metaphor went right over my head until just now when I read your post. It makes perfect sense when you put it that way, but it didn't come through for me in the text. Any insight into the other Lineages that someone reading the line for the first time might have missed? (in another thread or a PM is fine if it's going to distract from the topic at hand).


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        • #19
          When lightning strikes, it shall be revealed.


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          • #20
            I have a off-topic question about the Tammuz as well.
            In the first edition the Tammuz were described as golems. But according to some information I found on the internet, in the 2nd edition they have no more relationship with golems. So if I'm going to make a Tammuz character, how I can visualize his true form in my mind?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Ipergigio View Post
              So if I'm going to make a Tammuz character, how I can visualize his true form in my mind?
              Worker, buried in earth? They are still Earth related Prometheans made from human corpses, so...


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              • #22
                Originally posted by Ipergigio View Post
                I have a off-topic question about the Tammuz as well.
                In the first edition the Tammuz were described as golems. But according to some information I found on the internet, in the 2nd edition they have no more relationship with golems. So if I'm going to make a Tammuz character, how I can visualize his true form in my mind?
                I don't know where you got your information, but the golem influence is still there. It's not the whole of the Lineage's identity, but golem is an accurate description for an artificial being animated by a word of power inscribed on its body.


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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post

                  I don't know where you got your information, but the golem influence is still there. It's not the whole of the Lineage's identity, but golem is an accurate description for an artificial being animated by a word of power inscribed on its body.
                  But this body is not made of Clay. If it is, we have Tammuz Construct OR Unfleshed. And here bonkers goes as from creation process stand point the only diffrence between those two is that Tammuz Construct have written Word on him and Unfleshed do not have. 😕


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                    But this body is not made of Clay.
                    The difference between a human body covered in and infused with earth and an animate human form made of earth is largely academic.

                    If it is, we have Tammuz Construct OR Unfleshed. And here bonkers goes as from creation process stand point the only diffrence between those two is that Tammuz Construct have written Word on him and Unfleshed do not have. 😕
                    You don't make an Unfleshed by fashioning a crude form out of clay and planting it in the ground with a name and a shackle and you don't make a Tammuz by designing a machine with a definite function.


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                    • #25
                      So I have to visualize the Tammuz true form like a human body covered by mud and not a canon golem?

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Ipergigio View Post
                        So I have to visualize the Tammuz true form like a human body covered by mud and not a canon golem?
                        Explain the distinction.


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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                          But this body is not made of Clay.
                          Not literally, but clay is a common metaphor for flesh. Indeed that metaphor and the golem folklore both come from the same myth that God formed Adam from the earth.

                          Seeing as the CofD setting is about reverse engineering monsters from their appearance in pop culture and folklore, it makes a dark kind of sense that someone would use 'clay' as a stand in for corpse.


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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                            But this body is not made of Clay. If it is, we have Tammuz Construct OR Unfleshed. And here bonkers goes as from creation process stand point the only diffrence between those two is that Tammuz Construct have written Word on him and Unfleshed do not have. 😕
                            Maybe I'm too stepped in fantasy, but I'm pretty used to golems being made of things other than literal clay. And anyway, constructs are a thing, so it could still be made of clay if you want.


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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Ipergigio View Post
                              So I have to visualize the Tammuz true form like a human body covered by mud and not a canon golem?
                              Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                              Explain the distinction.
                              *Insectile chittering* One juicy with crispy coating... One crunchy inside-out. *Chewing noises*


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                              • #30
                                Bear in mind that the original five Lineages (Frankenstein, Galeteid, Osiran, Tammuz, and Ulgan) were always made out of corpses. It wasn't until the 1e supplement Magnum Opus (the Mirrors of the Promethean line) that the concept and mechanics of Constructs were introduced. 2e is actually a bit more open to Constructs than 1e was, in that the concept (if not the mechanics) is in the core book as something that exists, rather than being relegated to a book of setting hacks.

                                (That, and the Unfleshed — who almost by definition are made of inanimate materials instead of flesh and blood — have been “promoted” to a core Lineage instead of their barely canon status in 1e, further emphasizing the fact that in 2e it's not just possible but sometimes even essential that a Promethean be made out of something inorganic.)

                                The big change to the Tammuz between the two editions isn't that they got divorced from the concept of golems, but rather that they're no longer the slavery Lineage. That got transplanted to the new Unfleshed, and the Tammuz have been left with… the language thing. In terms of Constructs, 2e's Tammuz are assumed to be “flesh golems” by default; but there's nothing saying that they can't be made out of clay, or bronze, or paper, or cloth and stuffing, or a number of other possibilities.

                                If you want to shift the emphasis so that, like the Unfleshed, the Tammuz are assumed to be made of clay unless specified otherwise, there's nothing stopping you. Heck, it's not even that much of a change: the concept of Tammuz who are clay golems is already a thing in 2e. All you'd be doing would be putting them front and center.


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