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  • #61
    Those are good ideas. There are already Refinements based on studying the Promethean condition like that, so I'll make sure to take a look at those.

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    • #62
      The thing I most want now, though, is feedback from the playerbase, especially those with experience running or playing the game, is their preference regarding whether we should completely switch to Identity, keep Pilgrimage but improve it, or find some way to incorporate both.

      I'm actually starting to favor the idea of having Identity as an alternate Integrity stat, since there should definitely be support for Prometheans not on a Pilgrimage.
      Last edited by Geckopirateship; 10-19-2016, 04:52 AM.

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      • #63
        I think we'll definitely have some post-New Dawn NPCs, including at least one who became human and really kind of regrets it.

        Alchemists are now resistant or immune to Disquiet. In general, Disquiet now depends heavily on the person. For obvious reasons, mad scientists are almost completely immune to it. Supernatural beings actually process Disquiet using the exact same mechanics as mortals- it's all about what sorts of things the processor is comfortable with. So, for example, a Pathless Gifted Scientist or an Ordo Dracul kogaion wouldn't have any problems with Disquiet, while a Neo-Luddite Thyrsus or Pure would likely see an Unfleshed as a monstrous abomination. Of course, that's assuming you're using crossovers at all.

        The relationship between Prometheans and alchemists, even their creators, is flexible, fitting with how we're looking to free up the game and break down the railroading from previous editions. Theoretically, for example, a Promethean might have a not-terrible or even good relationship with their creator. Just because the game is heavily based on Frankenstein doesn't mean that every character has to follow his character arc, for example.

        Alchemist NPCs can definitely be villains, but they're just as likely to be friendly, or at least valuable contacts. The relationship between Prometheans and alchemists isn't exactly like any other relationship between a major template and their corresponding minor template, and we're looking forward to the possibilities. The majority of the members of the Centimani, for example, are alchemists, given the low numbers of Prometheans.

        Alchemists and Prometheans working together is a natural progression from the themes of ostracism and monstrosity- alchemists are often people isolated from humanity, which gives them a unique ability to relate to the Created. In fact, the most antagonistic alchemists tend to be the most connected and socially functional ones- the ones who consider themselves perfectly upstanding members of society who wouldn't dream of associating with creatures such as the created. The ones toiling in ramshackle laboratories on profane miracles of immortality and mutation, on the other hand, form bonds with the Created far more easily than most mortals.

        As for Pilgrimage, players have an unprecedented choice, since 2e is about being willing to take risks with mechanics. They can choose between Pilgrimage or Identity, and those who complete a Pilgrimage can change to another integrity stat depending on what they become, or remove it entirely (in the case of becoming something like a Spirit) with Identity being the default that they change to. Prometheans with Identity can choose an Aspiration as their Defining Aspiration, and working towards it grants them Vitriol. This option is designed for those players who want to play a character comfortable with being one of the Created.

        The Redeemers and the Tenders of the Wheel have an alliance, and we are introducing a new antagonist group: the Titans. The Titans are not so much an organization as an ideology or designation for those Prometheans and alchemists too extreme or unhinged for the Centimani. Interestingly, both the Redeemers and the Titans believe that they serve the Principle, despite the groups hating each other as much as they hate the Centimani.

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        • #64
          As for mechanics, is there anything else people would like to see changed? The existing mechanics for things like Transmutations already work fairly well, for example. Hopefully we'll be able to include Zeka in a later supplement.

          And RE Prometheans as actual resurrections, I'm thinking that it's best handled as a Condition, that gives the Promethean a bonus to Identity or Pilgrimage, and can be resolved if their Identity drops below a certain level (the Fire burns away the remains of their original consciousness) or completing a Pilgrimage (they find a way to stabilize the Fire inside them so that it no longer threatens their consciousness.

          While I like @dataweaver's alchemist rules, we won't be changing them much from the previous edition for simplicity's sake. And while there are major plot changes regarding how they're handled, that doesn't mean that they can't be used in an antagonistic role: that still happens quite often.

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          • #65
            Just getting something off my chest. I feel like I kind of do bring a unique perspective to this project because I personally have numerous things about me that give me a complex relationship with the game's themes. For example, I'm trans, and I have two major mental conditions, one that I wish I could cure and one that I consider a part of who I am. That puts me in the position of being able to sympathize with both the whole "progression and transformation idea" as well as the "fuck the world if it doesn't accept me" idea. I would desperately like a cure for my anxiety, but I wouldn't want to not be autistic. In general, really, I'm a misfit. I just don't understand humanity in a lot of ways. I find babies and children and reproduction disgusting and disturbing. I don't understand why people get married or why anyone expects monogamy. I don't understand why people are so interested in sports. I don't get why people seem to associate "natural" with "good". I think the human body is a disgusting, oozing, poorly made piece of garbage. The world was not made me for me. I am not at home among other humans. This whole ramble sort of got started from me looking at another one of the argument threads. In it, one person argued that people who were uncomfortable with the Pilgrimage and it being the only option because it reminded them of assimilation were wrong because "the world doesn't want Prometheans to become human, it wants them dead", and I've finally realized why it bothered me. Now, I am absolutely certain that the person who said it didn't mean it this way and meant no offense, but "be thankful they're not killing you" is one of the most pernicious statements that's used to silence marginalized people. "But women are being killed in the middle east!" Is used to silence criticism of sexism in America. Just because someone doesn't want you dead doesn't mean they aren't a hateful bigot. The world might want Prometheans dead, but that makes the Pilgrimage the sanctimonious fundie who says he "hates the sin and not the sinner" and tells you all about how he would never dream of hurting a gay person and he really just wants to help them be normal and healthy and virtuous.

            I know no analogy is 1:1, and as I've said, I don't think the person who said it is bigoted or malevolent at all. I don't think Matt is transphobic or ableist or sexist or bigoted in any way. The fact that Promethean 2e hits the same emotional buttons in me that TERF rhetoric or essentialist biotruths do is not his fault in any way, and I am not suggesting he be excoriated for it or apologize for it or anything like that. The fact that I and some other people can't help but read Promethean in a way that makes us uncomfortable is not his fault, and it is certainly, certainly not something he ever intended or would be happy with. I acknowledge that the fact that reading Promethean 2e as it is makes me feel suicidal is entirely on me, but I really would like to create a way that I can read it and play it and enjoy it without feeling that way. I want to have a book that lets me play as my absolute favorite monster within my absolute setting, that also makes me feel less alone and less broken.

            And of course from an out of universe standpoint I just want to be able to play a galvanic chimera or a robot who's happy being one and whose personal story isn't defined by becoming human.

            This is my declaration: I'm not getting in any more arguments about Promethean, and I'm not even going to complain about or criticize Promethean. I promise not to post a single negative thing about the game, and you can cite this and hold me to that. There's room for multiple canons and interpretations and games. This is the one I would prefer, but I will no longer to criticize or demean yours.
            Last edited by Geckopirateship; 10-30-2016, 10:13 PM.

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            • #66
              That's great. I really wish this had been your first post in the forums, I am sure it would have save a lot unnecessary suffering to a lot of people.

              One thing though, for example, taking your robot happy about being one: you can already start playing as one with an Unfleshed, but what then, where to move from there? Maybe you can ditch the pilgrimage alltogether and find a new focus for the game, I mean, vampire and werewolf do quite fine without a set end goal, but an ongoing one.
              Last edited by Thorbes; 10-22-2016, 06:49 AM.


              I'm So Meta Even This Acronym

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              • #67
                Speaking of, and this is off topic but I love seeing your procession of cute snake avatars, coming up with non-Pilgrimage goals, that's something I've been working on. A lot of the Hooks I've posted in the thread are Pilgrimage-neutral, for example. One thing I want to play up is "Pyros sense": Prometheans, Pandorans, and alchemists can sense flares of Pyros from fairly far away. I like this because it provides a way for Pyros phenomena to meet despite being rare, and it provides a built in way to give players proactive and reactive story hooks.

                Proactive would be "the players sense a burst of Pyros or have an azothic vision that Something Weird Is Going Down", while reactive is "the players were responsible for a burst of Pyros, and that means that Pandorans, hunters, and anyone else who's after them knows where they are".

                And a Promethean who's happy with being one still has plenty of room for growth and goals. Take the Refinements, for example. A Promethean could pursue any one of them without an end goal in mind. There are plenty of projects a Promethean could work on that don't involve an actual transformation. And making alchemists potential allies opens up a lot of hooks too.

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                • #68
                  Well, It is true that Promethean has so rich a background and universe that it should be easy to come up with objectives besides finishing the Great Work. And glad you like my spiny bush vipers, they are adorable


                  I'm So Meta Even This Acronym

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                  • #69
                    Even if players aren't on a capital P pilgrimage, I still want to keep the nomadic emphasis. Second Edition in particular does make it more practical to spend an extended period of time in one place, but overall I'm fine with keeping the incentives to keep moving, especially since it provides a nice contrast and departure from the other city-focused games.

                    Emphasizing "Pyros sense" would further help that, in that characters would be getting flickers from far off of phenomena they could potentially investigate, while if they made a mess somewhere they'd have a lot of incentive to move on, because even if they weren't at risk of stirring up an angry mob or starting an advanced wasteland, they would know that anyone sensitive to Pyros in the area would have sensed that something went down in their general vicinity. And Promethean has a lot of antagonists you can work that with, and the Redeemers are pretty much made for it.

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                    • #70
                      Some new ideas:

                      - I liked Arcanist's homunculus idea, so I might do something with altered Pandoran rules to represent minions an alchemist could create.

                      - Learning transmutations of Flux penalizes Identity but not Pilgrimage, and makes Disquiet and Wastelands more dangerous.

                      - "soul shard" Prometheans start at a higher Identity, but lose their original consciousness permanently if they dip below five Identity, which is a highly traumatic experience. If they start a Pilgrimage, they hold onto it, but they lose it permanently if they ever leave the Pilgrimage.

                      - Lumen isn't a "true" Refinement, but a sub-philosophy that some Autumn and Ferrum follow. It has no gameplay effects and merely describes character outlook, though it could theoretically become a "true" Refinement.

                      - The ability to control Pandorans is a merit, and possessing this ability causes other Prometheans to be rather suspicious of you, at best.

                      - The "tagline" is Don't Let Go. Don't let go of eternity, don't let go of who you are, don't let go of your identity, don't let go of your true self, don't even let go of your anger and your hatred and your spite.

                      - The intro fiction is almost done, and concerns some characters you'll recognize from earlier editions.

                      - The question of "who's the real monster?" is raised, and this time there's a better answer than "Nope, it was the Creature all along, what happened wasn't the doctor's fault! Shave and get drunk, humanity, you're already brilliant."

                      - I'm hoping I can cover the themes of rejecting humanity and embracing monstrosity in a way that Beast didn't really manage, since it's something I really like as a topic. I think part of the way to do it, though, is to really emphasize how shitty humans and their societies can be. I mean, look at how many of us apparently have no problem with giving Donald Trump a nuclear arsenal.

                      Also, here's my Promethean playlist: https://open.spotify.com/user/geckop...xV3aGzDKnlPX4s

                      "We are, not your kind of people
                      Don't want to be like you, ever in our lives
                      We are, not your kind of people
                      Won't be cast as demons, creatures you despise"
                      Last edited by Geckopirateship; 10-28-2016, 06:01 PM.

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                      • #71
                        I've been thinking about why I'm continuing with this, and I feel like, on some level, I need to. I've tried to like Promethean as is, I've looked over my objections, and I realize it isn't like me whining and shitting about Mage not fitting my preferences or thematic purity. The stuff in Promethean that I don't like is stuff that's genuinely hurt me, and stuff that can be genuinely harmful.

                        I've decided to push more of the "fuck society, fuck humanity" angle as a possibility, because Demon made me realize that it is possible to tell deeply resonant, wonderful stories about being marginalized or disabled or trans using the format of a game about monsters. Nothing else has spoken to me as a disabled trans person as much as Demon has. Promethean made me want to kills myself, demon made me want to live. Demon is a beautiful, wonderful affirmation of everything I aspire to be. So that's why I'm easing up a bit on avoiding parallels between monsters and marginalized groups. As I've said, as a trans person with multiple mental conditions whose been personally hurt by the kind of rhetoric Promethean and its defenders use, I think I'm in a unique place to work on it. I want to reiterate that I'm not calling Matt or any of the devs or fans bigots, I'm saying that their product and their rhetoric makes me uncomfortable. I understand that other people with similar situations to mine like Promethean as it is, so I accept that my complaints aren't universal. So I'm not demanding change or pointing fingers.

                        I'm really hoping to cover concepts of monstrosity and alienation and otherness in a way TFC couldn't- you can't really have a meaningful discussion about outsiders when the ultimate message of the story is "outsiders are inherently flawed and will never be happy until they become like the perfect wonderful insiders, and by the way it isn't the insiders' fault that they hate the outsiders". Being trans and transitioning is really the only thing TFC kind of works for, and even then it isn't perfect. If you try to apply the framework of the pilgrimage to disability or race or sexuality, then things get ugly. By making it optional and customizable, I'm bringing it closer to a healthy perspective: wanting to change parts of yourself is fine, but so is not wanting to change.

                        I'm someone who wants to transition and desperately wants to change my body, but that doesn't make me feel like a Promethean. It makes me feel like an alchemist. Like someone hiding in the shadows of society and seeking forbidden technology and scientific progress, all while being told I'm selfish and corrupt and defying nature.

                        Here's a mechanical thing I decided: Redeemers, Centimani, and Titans all use the same Refinements, they just have different perspectives on them. Redeemers tend to be closest to how TFC presents refinements: rigidly locked into seeing them only as ways to get close to humanity, with anything else being seen as heretical. Centimani have much more diverse and personal views of them. This plays into the divide between the three "factions", in that they get increasingly disorganized. The Redeemers are a rigidly hierarchical cult, the Centimani are a loose network of mostly alchemists, and the Titans are usually lone Prometheans or occasional Titan Throngs.

                        Remember the rather silly note in 1e about how a centimanus could theoretically be good if they were using the refinement to understand monsters in humanity? That's sort of what an Aurum Titan would be like.

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                        • #72
                          You have created an environment with your posts that have made other participants hesitant about posting on the forums, attempted to monopolize the forums for external validation, and thrown emotionally manipulative tantrums when that validation was not received.
                          You have attacked other forum members while claiming victimhood and have been given every reasonable chance to change your attitude and behavior but have failed to do so.
                          In light of repeated flag reports and your most recent statements about Promethean one can only come to the conclusion that this is not a healthy environment for you to participate in, I suggest in no uncertain terms that you seek professional help because this forum is not equipped to offer you the assistance you appear to need.
                          ‚Äč Your posting privileges have been permanently suspended. This is as much for your benefit as it is for the rest of the forum community. You may appeal this decision by using the contact link contained in the Forum Rules.



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