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Is Driven just kinda bananas?

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  • Is Driven just kinda bananas?

    Like... for each merit dot you put into it, you get a benefit and a beat. At 1 dot, that's quite a nice perk. At 5, you can be earning an entire experience, /plus/ earning a lot of extra benefits on top of that. In my Mage game right now, they probably average out about 5-10 beats (including Arcane beats) per session; that's quite a lot.

  • #2
    I think it fits with Promethean as a whole. The game is about change and growth, and they already have access to a lot of Conditions just for existing (Refinement Condition, 2+ transmutation conditions, possibly persistent conditions from the get-go) so unless you remove the beat-per-scene limit on Conditions it just means that they're supposed to clear one per scene. Yes, they'll get a lot of XP, but most of their supernatural stuff is hidden behind Vitriol XP, including their powers and their Pilgrimage.... soooooo no I think it's fine


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    • #3
      Originally posted by Magnum Opus View Post
      I think it fits with Promethean as a whole. The game is about change and growth, and they already have access to a lot of Conditions just for existing (Refinement Condition, 2+ transmutation conditions, possibly persistent conditions from the get-go) so unless you remove the beat-per-scene limit on Conditions it just means that they're supposed to clear one per scene. Yes, they'll get a lot of XP, but most of their supernatural stuff is hidden behind Vitriol XP, including their powers and their Pilgrimage.... soooooo no I think it's fine
      Mm, that's true! Wasn't thinking of the singleton rule, or the fact they'll have other conditions to clear. I see this perspective.

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      • #4
        No, this Merit is absolutely bananas. Like, a guaranteed 1-5 potential sources of Beats per session is incredible, even if you don't have the opportunity to cash them all in, that's still an incredible experience advantage over characters without it of you're not using Group Beats. And on top of that you get a guaranteed 1-5 beneficial Conditions every session, which is great even without the Beat benefit.


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        • #5
          Something I'm considering doing is making it so that Driven is a shared merit, like Totem or Haven. The whole throng can use its benefits equal to the total number of Driven dots between the PCs. Also with Group Beats. I think that could work pretty well.


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          • #6
            Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
            [I]f you're not using Group Beats.
            Why would anyone do such a thing

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            • #7
              Originally posted by crabbadon View Post
              In my Mage game right now, they probably average out about 5-10 beats (including Arcane beats) per session; that's quite a lot.
              That's why the merit's prerequisite reads: "Promethean".

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Aspel View Post
                Why would anyone do such a thing
                I run without group Beats. Of course, I also run the game without any assumption that the PCs are working together cooperatively.


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                  I run without group Beats. Of course, I also run the game without any assumption that the PCs are working together cooperatively.
                  This is one of those YKINMK things on both counts. I can't imagine running a game like that (I can barely get things done with players who are working together cooperatively)

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Aspel View Post
                    This is one of those YKINMK things on both counts. I can't imagine running a game like that (I can barely get things done with players who are working together cooperatively)
                    I'm not familiar with the acronym, but I think I get the gist of what you're saying, and yeah. My style is not for everyone. It's also something particular to CofD for me, and probably comes from my LARP background. I would never dream of running D&D the way I run CofD games, for example, because I see D&D as a team sport. The adventurers have a mutual goal or goals that they have to work together to achieve. CofD, on the other hand, I prefer to run more sandboxy. The characters have individual goals which sometimes compliment each other and sometimes run counter to each other, and work together or separately as they each see fit. From time to time I might throw something big at them that requires cooperation to deal with, but cooperation is not a default assumption. I definitely understand why that style might not appeal to some folks, and why group Beats are such a popular mechanic.


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                    • #11
                      Charlaquin, do you feel like your players ever become too competitive when their characters have contradictory goals? That's the main thing I want to avoid, and why I try to go for more cooperative playstyles.


                      "Nihhina kalekal-zidu kal masun, kal manudanadu. Nihhina kalekal-zidu nukal shaghu-desasudu — nihhina kalekal-zidu kal innu-desasudu udhkal samm." Arthur Ashe
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by BigDamnHero View Post
                        Charlaquin, do you feel like your players ever become too competitive when their characters have contradictory goals? That's the main thing I want to avoid, and why I try to go for more cooperative playstyles.
                        I haven't found them to, although I have a pretty high threshold for what I would consider too competitive, so YMMV. Pretty much, if it's not causing out-of-character conflict, it's fair game in my book. Although I haven't really had much PC vs. PC violence in tabletop games (super common in LARP though).

                        I should also note that this is largely referring to Vampire and vanilla, the lines I have the most experience running. Werewolf, for example, is a bit of a different story, because there I assume the PCs are in the same pack and generally have mutual goals. I haven't run Promethean yet, though I very much want to at some point (too busy with other games at the moment). When I do, I will probably want to do it as a very small group, no more than 3 players but ideally 1 or 2, and in that case I would assume all PCs have the shared overarching goal of the New Dawn, but that would inherently require individual goals to meet personal Milestones, and I would probably want to include at least one that would challenge their cooperation.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Malus View Post

                          That's why the merit's prerequisite reads: "Promethean".
                          Thank you for this stunning and unprecedented revelation, and utmost shame on me for the hubris of daring to try to use a different CoD game as a yardstick for how many beats players are likely to earn in a session. You acquire ten Extremely Clever, If Also Utterly Unhelpful Person Points, redeemable nowhere.

                          Originally posted by BigDamnHero View Post
                          Charlaquin, do you feel like your players ever become too competitive when their characters have contradictory goals? That's the main thing I want to avoid, and why I try to go for more cooperative playstyles.
                          If I can offer my 5c: I think there's 2 threads to tease apart from this discussion: 1) why not use group beats? and 2) do characters which have contradictory goals get 'too competitive' (which I'm taking to mean 'do they spend all their time fighting each other instead of the ST's world')?

                          As to 1, I fundamentally see individual mechanical progression as relatively unimportant in WoD, because there's so much opportunity to specialise. Even if everyone is five whole experiences ahead of you, you may well still find yourself cornered by a pack of wild dogs and piping up "Oh! I have 5 Animal Ken. Will that help?". So I'm not that concerned that imbalance in number-of-points is going to be harmful to fun. Why to choose individual over group beats, well, I do run games where characters are fundamentally on the same side*, but are expected to sometimes or always put their agendas over the good of the group. Mechanics matches theme, yanno?

                          As to 2, basically, no. Maybe with the right group that would happen, and hopefully that would be a thing, which they enjoy, but fundamentally most players will pull together in the face of external threat. I have seen several games where this has led to a character becoming unplayable, but in all but one such cases this was just... the end of their Cool Arc. Players can always make new characters, and the end of a character can be a cool story, y'know?

                          There's only really one case I can remember where a character's contrary agenda made the game less fun, and that was a situation which really ought to have been nipped in the bud in character creation.

                          *Usually. Even when one person is in fact a traitor, I think it's only fair to heavily foreshadow (he was a PRIEST called JUDAS who THOUGHT HIS KEEPER WAS GOD), and that kind of plot only really works at all if they usually align with the party (A neutral evil serial killer is an excellent asset if you intend to slay a dragon).
                          Last edited by crabbadon; 08-31-2016, 03:04 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by crabbadon View Post
                            Thank you for this stunning and unprecedented revelation, and utmost shame on me for the hubris of daring to try to use a different CoD game as a yardstick for how many beats players are likely to earn in a session. You acquire ten Extremely Clever, If Also Utterly Unhelpful Person Points, redeemable nowhere.
                            ​That was needlessly antagonistic and a violation of the forum rules, don't do it again or you will be suspended from the forums.


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