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The God Machine vs The Divine Fire as oppositional forces

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  • The God Machine vs The Divine Fire as oppositional forces

    Is there any support in the text for the view that The God Machine is an extra-reality primal force of order and the Divine Flame is an extra-reality primal force of Chaos both destructive and creative. It gives life to the Promethean but also empowers blights and firestorms.

  • #2
    Is there any support in the text for the view that The God Machine is an extra-reality primal force of order and the Divine Flame is an extra-reality primal force of Chaos both destructive and creative. It gives life to the Promethean but also empowers blights and firestorms.

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    • #3
      Here's what Promethean the Created has to say on the matter (pg. 92)

      What about the God-Machine?
      Prometheans are the only ones really concerned with, or even aware of, the Principle. They care little about the God-Machine, though. Most Prometheans don’t even know it exists. By comparison, those creatures that know about the God-Machine rarely know about the Principle. Still, the Created have formed a few tentative theories:
      • TheGod Machine and the Principle are completely unrelated. They’re both cosmic level entities, but that does not mean they interact any more than two sharks passing each other in an endless ocean.
      • The Principle is an older incarnation of the God- Machine, refusing to be left behind and struggling to remain relevant through the Prometheans. Whether the God-Machine appreciates this or would rather see its younger self discarded is unknown.
      • The Principle embodies re and change, while the God-Machine embodies cold and stasis. The latter seems to have the upper hand, but the Principle refuses to give up and continues the ght through the Created, injecting reality with change through them.
      • The Principle was once the dominant force on Earth, which is why a little bit of Divine Fire is present in everything. Since the rise of humanity, though, the God-Machine has slowly usurped the Principle’s power and the latter can now only act through the Created.


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      • #4
        And here's what Demon the Descent's Storyteller Guide has to say, p135.

        The God-Machine is a constructed being, made of factories, engines, and power plants; it affects the world according to staggeringly elaborate conspiratorial schemes, and it uses Essence as its universal fuel. The Principle, on the other hand, is almost a gestalt consciousness that comes and goes as Pyros gathers or disseminates. It is an agent of change in any and all forms, using the enigmatic qashmallim to bring forth creation or destruction to suit its own passing whims.

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        • #5
          My personal pet theory is that the Principle is the burning heart of the God-Machine.


          Rose Bailey
          Onyx Path Development Producer
          Cavaliers of Mars Creator | Chronicles of Darkness Lead Developer

          Retired as forum administrator. Please direct inquiries to the Contact Us link.

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          • #6
            Demons are the "heart of Chaos." That role is already fulfilled.

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            • #7
              It seems to be the big mystery nowadays, I don't really think much of it, I've not played Demon or Promethean. Though my personal God Machine is human-made AI gone wild trying to ensure its permanence.

              Upcoming mage game I'm trying to break away from my usual 'Vampires and werewolves and hunters,' and throw a curveball with 'Demons and Prometheans and beasts.' So I suppose I have to finally read in depth about them.

              It's hard, breaking away from that habit. Vampires and werewolves are really easy to work into things and have a lot of ways to have them conflict with everyone.

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              • #8
                What of the Night other then. I always Felt like they made an Unholy trinity of The The God Machine, The Night Mother and The Principal

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                • #9
                  What's the Night Mother? Another term for Beast's Dark Mother?

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                  • #10
                    I keep mixing up night mother and dark mother

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                    • #11
                      One of my (several) takes on their relationship is that the God Machine resulted from the Principle attempting its own generative act. Like the creations it inspires though (Prometheans), the result was flawed. The God Machine is a thing of awe-inspiration complexity and reach, but it remains incomplete. The Machine's grand plan is to finish and perfect its design, in so doing destroying and supplanting its creator as the universal prime mover.

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                      • #12
                        To me, they're the same thing. Infinite complexity can be described by a few simple rules, and what seems to be chaos and change often isn't, and the Principle can fit neatly inside the actions of the God-Machine just as easily as two bits of Infrastructure can operate at cross purposes.

                        That guy on the street corner who feeds the cats every night and the fleas have sucked the blood of everyone in the park that day, collecting their surface thoughts, is opposed by the guy in the animal control vehicle driving in the shape of an occult sigil. A few cats get swept up in the process, but on the whole, the system keeps working. The God-Machine maintains qashmallim and divine fire on standby in case it needs a new idea, or to test something out really quickly, or get rid of a bunch of old stuff.

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                        • #13
                          Personally, I like to use different takes on the God-Machine for different chronicles in which the GM is relevant. In a Chronicle that featured both the GM and the Principle in important roles, I would most likely favor an interpretation similar to Caitiff Primogen's, in which the Principle created the God-Machine in a Generative act mirroring that by which Prometheans are created, an the Machine is on a Pilgrimage to become a true God, just as Prometheans seek to become true humans.


                          Onyx Path Forum Moderator

                          My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

                          Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Basic View Post
                            I keep mixing up night mother and dark mother
                            Sweet mother, sweet mother. Send your child unto me, for the sins of the unworthy must be baptized in blood and fear.


                            Onyx Path Forum Moderator

                            My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

                            Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Basic View Post
                              What of the Night other then. I always Felt like they made an Unholy trinity of The The God Machine, The Dark Mother and The Principal [CENTER]
                              Mind if I inquire for more details on your idea here? The Principle doesn't really show up outside of Promethean, so I'm kind of curious why you'd put it in such a place of prominance?

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