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The God Machine vs The Divine Fire as oppositional forces

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Geckopirateship View Post
    Part of me almost wants to make them the same thing, because I'm so tired of "The GM is evil and the Principle is good so they must be enemies!".
    This appears to be the interpretation whoever wrote the short story woven through artifact letters in The God-Machine Chronicle meant to imply. That, or at the minimum, that the God-Machine shares enough abilities and properties with the Principle that some proportion of what is interpreted as qashmal activity by Prometheans is actually the God-Machine, or that they exist on a continuum, or the like.

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    • #32
      I'd say I was disappointed in the writer for going that route, but my expectations have learned to treat life like a limbo contest.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Geckopirateship View Post
        I'd say I was disappointed in the writer for going that route, but my expectations have learned to treat life like a limbo contest.
        I'm not sure whether I was clear, so to clarify: the interpretation implied by the artifact letters in question is "they are the same thing," not "one is evil and one is good and they are enemies."

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        • #34
          Oh, okay, that's much better.

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          • #35
            I always liked the idea of the Chronicles of Darkness being a set of tenuously-connected alternate realities rather than a cohesive single universe, and under that interpretation, I'd have the GM and the Fire be alternate beings that just occupy a similar metaphysical niche in their own respective universes.


            Words of Wisdom from the Forums:
            "Don't be unlucky and get dead by a wolf-man."
            "Most of the current eras are too modern, we need 'Dark Eras: The electroweak epoch'."

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            • #36
              FWIW, the “they're the same” notion has been well and truly debunked, by the fact that GM angels and qashmallim are provably not the same. That said, neither “GM evil” nor “Principle good” are supported by published material; as with most things in the ChroD, it's rarely clear-cut.


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              • #37
                The Principle could just as easily exist for no particular purpose at all, an agglomeration of Azoth that spastically induces creation because that just what the divine fire does. The New Dawn is also an outgrowth of the divine fire, but simply because it is within its power does not mean it is its deliberate function. The idea of the Pilgrimage being set forth by the Principle, with messages and mission from the Qashmalim, could just as easily be Prometheans seeing false patterns in the Principle's spasms of inspiration and trying to make sense and meaning out of their existence.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                  FWIW, the “they're the same” notion has been well and truly debunked, by the fact that GM angels and qashmallim are provably not the same. That said, neither “GM evil” nor “Principle good” are supported by published material; as with most things in the ChroD, it's rarely clear-cut.
                  I much prefer God-Machine = Order, Demons = Chaos, Principle = Dicotomy of Entropy and Evolution. None of them are remotely good, but neither are they mavolent. At best, they are unknowable. Then again, I am particularly found of the Principle being Azathoth, so I would make the entire lot rather Lovecraftian.


                  CofD booklists:
                  Beast I Changeling | Geist l Hunter l Mummy | Promethean

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                  • #39
                    Also backing the Principle being Azathoth. Also, I finally came up with a way to describe it that I like, that's over on the TLC thread.

                    Anyways, if we're going to be making a new Triat, where does the Wyrd fit in? I saw a thread where someone added the Wyrd to oWoD's Triat. What's that called, a quadrat? I kind of like the Machine, the Dark Mother, the Wyrd, and the Principle being the Quadrat. Though you could conflate any number of the latter three: the DM does have some connection to both, Kinship being what it is.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Geckopirateship View Post
                      Also backing the Principle being Azathoth. Also, I finally came up with a way to describe it that I like, that's over on the TLC thread.

                      Anyways, if we're going to be making a new Triat, where does the Wyrd fit in? I saw a thread where someone added the Wyrd to oWoD's Triat. What's that called, a quadrat? I kind of like the Machine, the Dark Mother, the Wyrd, and the Principle being the Quadrat. Though you could conflate any number of the latter three: the DM does have some connection to both, Kinship being what it is.
                      So, I'm about to try and jam in as many cosmic forces as possible here:

                      The Supernal and Abyss are raw, unworked materials.
                      The Fire precipitates usable Actors, Props, etc. from raw reagents.
                      The Machine processes the Fire's products, organizing them in space.
                      The Wyrd creates a narrative, and thus organizes them in time and causality.
                      When the pieces have served their purpose, they are broken back down into raw materials as Sekhem
                      The Sekhem is transported to the Judges in Duat, who then remake it as raw materials for their own personal cosmos. This universe is the same universe that they just drew Sekhem from, and that raw material ends up in the Supernal and Abyss.

                      Disclaimer: This is 100% wrong, and I'm bad for typing it.


                      Words of Wisdom from the Forums:
                      "Don't be unlucky and get dead by a wolf-man."
                      "Most of the current eras are too modern, we need 'Dark Eras: The electroweak epoch'."

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                      • #41
                        Don't apologize, that's a really cool idea.

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                        • #42
                          I personally wouldn't put the Dark Mother on the level of the God Machine and the Principle, I rather have the Wyrd in there as a third power. The Dark Mother is too concrete while the other three are adequately abstract and impersonal.


                          I'm So Meta Even This Acronym

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                          • #43
                            I dunno, I'm really liking having the DM as an equal and oppositional force to the GM, mostly because it lets me bring the Mekhanists and the Sarkicists from The SCPverse into ChroD.

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                            • #44
                              My headcanon is that the Principle and the GM used to be one entity but something went wrong and they got split in two. The GM is basically the body while the Principle is the soul.

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