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Making discplines more useful in combat?

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  • Making discplines more useful in combat?

    I was reading White Wolf wiki and came across this:

    Disciplines have broadly changed to make them less helpful in combat and more helpful in other ways. A number of original clans (some now bloodlines) have changed in theme and gained different Disciplines to reflect this; for example, the Nosferatu have changed from revolting outcasts to actual monsters, and the entirely new Nightmare Discipline helps them maintain this image.
    I guess this is one of the few things that I'm concerned or critical about in Requiem that your disciplines are less helpful in combat therefore making your character weaker compared to the average VtM vampire although is 2nd edition different though?

    Well this is one of the few things I've liked in Masquerade was the fact that disciplines were not only powerful but also sufficient in combat making you quite formidable and easily translated into a video game while I heard in Requiem it's watered down to the point I remember reading in one review that it almost makes your character like a mortal or am I wrong?

    Well honestly, just how powerful Requiem's disciplines are and can they hold a candle to Masquerade's? Is it even possible to beef them up to make them not only combat sufficient but also just port the Masquerade disciplines into Requiem with no changes? Especially those who are playing combat heavy and powerhouse games.
    Last edited by Veindark; 11-25-2016, 02:16 PM.

  • #2
    Always be wary of making secondhand mechanical judgments. It's like a game of telephone: slight distortions build up as ideas pass from listener to listener.

    You're not going to have luck trying to run Masquerade Discipline rules in a Requiem game. Not only are certain mechanics, like extra actions/attacks in one turn, seriously unbalanced for the CofD system in general, but the dice rolling mechanic itself is different in ways that will confuse and mess it up.

    Requiem Disciplines are absolutely sufficient for use in combat. First edition Vampire: The Requiem does have less of a gulf of threat between the living and the dead, and if you're the type to run crossover with other gamelines, Requiem was sometimes considered to have been left behind in capabilities compared to characters from later gamelines, although Requiem characters also had some of the lowest-investment access to inflicting aggravated damage, which became pretty rare in later gamelines. Second edition Requiem beefs vampires up significantly in hardiness. It also ratchets down that outlier access to aggravated damage, but it wasn't really needed; aggravated damage doesn't have the presence in CofD games that it does in WoD.

    Basically: a Requiem vampire has a definite (1e) or overwhelming (2e) advantage over a mortal human. They're just not generally going to cuisinart them in one round. And, like in WoD, probably the nastiest things you can do to a human involve never letting them get into a fight with you in the first place.

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    • #3
      Yeah, if you read Requiem 2E, you're not going to be disappointed with combat utility, re: disciplines. Animalism 5 basically lets you weaponize your domain, and Nightmare can scare people so badly they take lethal damage (which is hard to do to Kindred in Requiem). As SL says, the wiki description is a little out of date here, and it's second hand information anyway. As I said in the other thread, the objection isn't that some of the facets of old powers could kill really well, it's that that was all some of them could do, even when that didn't make sense.



      Social justice vampire/freelancer | He/Him

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      • #4
        The power curve is a little flatter in 2e Requiem than in V20 Masquerade. A starting vampire in Requiem is considerably more threatening than a starting vampire in Masquerade, and it's easier to accumulate power, including combat power, faster. The flip side is that Masquerade vampires have a higher ceiling. An elder in Requiem is a terrifying monster, but it doesn't hold a candle to the blood gods that Masquerade's Methuselah could become with enough experience.

        As for combat ability, Requiem vampires have it. The physical Disciplines - Celerity, Vigor (the Potence analogue), and Resilience (the Fortitude analogue) are incredible without breaking CofD's combat system. The more cerebral Disciplines also have their combat applications, though it's true that some of their most potent and frightening abilities involve screwing you over long before combat ever starts. Physical Intensity means even a vampire with no combat investment can still overwhelm most mortal opponents if they're willing to spend enough Vitae.


        Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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        • #5
          Experience spent directly towards becoming a combat specialist will make you combat specialist better, faster and stronger than spending these XP towards Disciplines (well, with some exceptions - but those tend to synergize with combat purchases, instead of just being flat better). This is a good thing, because XP spent towards becoming a combat threat should make you a combat threat. This doesn't mean, at the same time, that Disciplines can't contribute towards your victory. In fact, while they might not interact with your combat stats directly, they might give you alternate methods of combat resolution that don't rely on standard methods.

          Remember, in 2nd ED, combat is goal oriented - and you should evaluate options with that in mind. Does it help progress towards that goal faster? Or, maybe, it gives you a whole new way of solving the encounter? Disciplines tends to provide you with both of these.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
            The flip side is that Masquerade vampires have a higher ceiling. An elder in Requiem is a terrifying monster, but it doesn't hold a candle to the blood gods that Masquerade's Methuselah could become with enough experience.
            That's where the main issue lies since Vampires in Requiem can't get as powerful as a Masquerade Methuselah hence they can't become 'blood gods' (although as long it's not in world destroying proportions like the Antediluvians though).

            Although I just now thinking of a idea of a "Blood Potency and Generation" mixture that if a Vampire has lower generation then their blood potency allows them to do more powerful feats while vampires of higher generations their BP exhausts more quickly if they use too much power that their generation can support. What I mean is that lower generations can hold so much power due to their blood potency being longer than 10 while higher generation vampires go into 'exhaustion' after increasing their power around 10 or after.
            Last edited by Veindark; 11-25-2016, 05:49 PM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Veindark View Post
              I heard in Requiem it's watered down to the point I remember reading in one review that it almost makes your character like a mortal or am I wrong?
              You can easily build a starting vampire capable of throwing a small car. So no, they don't feel particularly like a mortal.

              And to be honest I think saying requiem vamps can't get as powerful as masquerade Methuselahs is a bit premature. The fact is we don't know what they can really do. Some of the elder-tier devotions are pretty crazy. (become totally invulnerable,. turn into an amorphous shapeshifting blob of teeth, claws and death, summon an actual biblical plague of vermin) So who knows what they can do if they really put their mind to it?
              Last edited by Elfive; 11-25-2016, 05:55 PM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                You can easily build a starting vampire capable of throwing a small car. So no, they don't feel particularly like a mortal.

                And to be honest I think saying requiem vamps can't get as powerful as masquerade Methuselahs is a bit premature. The fact is we don't know what they can really do. Some of the elder-tier devotions are pretty crazy. (become totally invulnerable,. turn into an amorphous shapeshifting blob of teeth, claws and death, summon an actual biblical plague of vermin) So who knows what they can do if they really put their mind to it?
                I guess it means they're capable summoning shadow tentacles and throwing cars around and ripping adversaries apart with them? Well if Requiem's Obtenebration can do that.

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                • #9
                  Have you tried Beast gameline?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Veindark View Post

                    I guess it means they're capable summoning shadow tentacles and throwing cars around and ripping adversaries apart with them? Well if Requiem's Obtenebration can do that.
                    Well, Obtenebration can't really do that, but a BP10 elder? Yeah, sure. Probably involve Protean and Nightmare or something.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                      And to be honest I think saying requiem vamps can't get as powerful as masquerade Methuselahs is a bit premature. The fact is we don't know what they can really do. Some of the elder-tier devotions are pretty crazy. (become totally invulnerable,. turn into an amorphous shapeshifting blob of teeth, claws and death, summon an actual biblical plague of vermin) So who knows what they can do if they really put their mind to it?
                      Yeah, I did mean within the limits of currently available options. I expect Thousand Years of Night will eventually bring us even more incredible elder Devotions and wouldn't be surprised to see other ways to expand an elder's power. I doubt Antediluvian level "plot device" powers, but I would bet money we'll see the power ceiling raised.


                      Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                      • #12
                        I would not be surprised if that review was for VtR 1E where starting vampires were extremely squishy. 2E has definitely upped the power levels for even starting vampires. And while the extremely powerful vampires in VtR might not have the same supernatural powers as in VtM, they are most definitely gods when it comes to physical prowess.
                        With nothing more than official 2E rules and a huge pile of XP I can build a vampire who can throw that car with 102 dice. Or stab someone with 114 dice, 9-Again, Rote Action with a 7L weapon (that still deals Lethal to vampires). Of course, that's the extreme end of the scale and requires a huge Vitae expenditure, but even half of that dice pool would turn any mortal into chunky salsa.

                        Edit: Oh, and reduce those dice pools with 10 and the vampire can also reflexively become 100% impervious to any harm for the rest of the turn, including aggravated damage and damage from the great banes. You know, in case someone would want to attack that monstrosity after seeing what it did to your friend.
                        Last edited by Tessie; 11-25-2016, 06:16 PM.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Veindark View Post
                          I guess it means they're capable summoning shadow tentacles and throwing cars around and ripping adversaries apart with them? Well if Requiem's Obtenebration can do that.
                          Wasn't Obtenebration originally written to be an antagonist power, and isn't it generally considered overpowered to the point of being inappropriate for most player characters in Masquerade? Conversely, Requiem 2e's Obten is powerful without breaking the CofD system.
                          Last edited by Charlaquin; 11-25-2016, 06:15 PM.


                          Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                          • #14
                            The antagonistic/protagonist split is discussed in thread next to this one, Translation of Masquerade Powers, I believe. It involves the same user, so you can basically read up their stance on that preemptively.

                            Anyway, I suggested Beast because it's powers seem to fit the aesthetics of Shadow Tentacle Monster and similar builds more than current iteration of Vampire. This is not a judgemental statement (I don't have any particular opinion about Lasombra, not my cup of tea), but I think that Beast might have better array of powers that might interest you.

                            As for power levels, it's important to remember that in comparison to Masquerade, lower ceiling went up but upper ceiling went lower. That is, as long as we are talking about prewritten powers; Requiem left a good design tool that can be used to adjust these higher power levels to your liking by introduction of...these special powers that you learn by spending extra XP and which have extra requirement, like knowledge of multiple disciplines. So if you want your Elders to go Full JoJo, you can adjust the power level directly by altering how powerful late-game perks are. Game is fairly modular, so as long as you do it consequently, it should remain stable.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                              The power curve is a little flatter in 2e Requiem than in V20 Masquerade. A starting vampire in Requiem is considerably more threatening than a starting vampire in Masquerade, and it's easier to accumulate power, including combat power, faster. The flip side is that Masquerade vampires have a higher ceiling. An elder in Requiem is a terrifying monster, but it doesn't hold a candle to the blood gods that Masquerade's Methuselah could become with enough experience.
                              Honestly I do not agree with this. I played Masquerade as well requiem 1ed and 2ed. I agree if we are talking about 1ed requiem discipline but definetely not if we are considering 2ed.
                              I mean, a fifth power of requiem 2ed, often is at the same level of a level 6-7 of the comparative discipline of masquerade, and with devotion there are quite no limits. Take as example juggernaut gait that save you from a nuke bomb theoretically, or dark decree (I'm not sure about the name) that allow you to change the fate itself.

                              About combat disciplines lets make a comparision between the physical ones:

                              Vigor allow you to be more effective in hitting the targhet while Potence don't. Furthemore with Vigor you can emulate the power of potence dealing automatic damage.

                              Resilence: definetely more powerful then Fortitutude; Reislence downgrade aggravated damage and allow you to negate resilence+1 lethal/bashing damages and, at the same time, resilence aggravated.

                              Celerity, allow you to hit first, make surprise attack, and be more hard to hit. Here is hard to make a comparision because of the different basic system that don't allow you to do multiple actions.

                              I definetly think that a requiem 2ed vampire with blood potency 7-8 is far more powerful than a mathuselah of masquerad in combat. Also because the frenzy and physical intensity sistem.
                              Last edited by Marcus; 11-25-2016, 07:28 PM.

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