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Is the Circle of Crone Actually Patriarchal?

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  • Is the Circle of Crone Actually Patriarchal?

    For those who are away of how the Circle is structured, seems Male and Female members are categorized into the "Three Faces" structure with Women being Hecate/Eve and Men being Adam which if you look at these structures, the Mother has no real power while the Lord does which means the entire system is set to benefit Men in the circle who their word is law while Women in the covenant actually having no real power therefore making the covenant actually patriarchal.

    Is this actually the case? Or is it possible for female members of the Crone to reject the patriarchal narratives of the Three Faces of Adam and Hecate/Eve?

  • #2
    The Circle of the Crone is not a monolithic institution and the three faces structure is only one way a given Choir might be organized. Just as not all Carthians are communists, not all Acolytes are Hecatean. So, to answer your question, some Choirs are indeed patriarchal, while others are matriarchal, and others are neither.


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    • #3
      Also as mentioned in this thread, nothing keeps a male from representing the Maiden and a female from representing the Father, or anyone from representing any other.

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      • #4
        No, like all the covenants, its a far more complex web of power then that.
        Last edited by Omegaphallic; 12-12-2016, 07:52 PM.

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        • #5
          oh do the titles of "Maiden, Mother, hermit, hero , crone, etc, still exist in 2nd edition?


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          • #6
            Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
            oh do the titles of "Maiden, Mother, hermit, hero , crone, etc, still exist in 2nd edition?
            No reason they wouldn't, if you want them to.


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            • #7
              It's more like what does the covenant need in this area, how do we get it and who can fill the role?

              Remember it's all based on some kind of alternative and reject to the christian allegory. Because that's the Lance's stick of god's plan, while the circle is about vampires are a natural entity. Using Pagan themes and motif helps reinforces that. The pagan themes rejecting the christian symbolism and taking it back to it's ground roots.

              I'm actually really curious how a Shinto or Buddhist bent to vampirism would be styled like? And how much Jungian archetypes pop up


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              • #8
                Wasn't there a Carthian sect dedicated to bringing about a Buddhism-inspired theocracy somewhere?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by MercSet View Post
                  Remember it's all based on some kind of alternative and reject to the christian allegory. Because that's the Lance's stick of god's plan, while the circle is about vampires are a natural entity. Using Pagan themes and motif helps reinforces that. The pagan themes rejecting the christian symbolism and taking it back to it's ground roots.
                  While the Circle of the Crone itself is new, the idea is older than the Lancea et Sanctum. 'There have always been pagan vampires.' Originally they were just disparate groups using their local or inherited beliefs. When persecuted to near extinction as the Lancea et Sanctum became more powerful and less permissive, they eventually organized into a larger covenant that, as you can see in Secrets of the Covenants, allows them to be more connected, even with their differing individual beliefs.

                  Some may embrace it to reject christian allegory, but that's not what made it.

                  I'm actually really curious how a Shinto or Buddhist bent to vampirism would be styled like? And how much Jungian archetypes pop up
                  There's Zen Carthians mentioned in the Carthian book, who just try to make sure they do as little damage as possible. The closer you get to actual Buddhism I think the less like a covenant the group would be. A vampire could conceivably wall themselves up in a monastery far from the world and meditate without ever infringing on domains.

                  A pseudo-Shinto system of the Circle of the Crone exists in the Amanotsukai faction. They believe the Crone is Amaterasu, who wishes them to purge the world of impurity, and have gifted vampires with the ability to take that purity from others.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by nofather View Post

                    While the Circle of the Crone itself is new, the idea is older than the Lancea et Sanctum. 'There have always been pagan vampires.' Originally they were just disparate groups using their local or inherited beliefs. When persecuted to near extinction as the Lancea et Sanctum became more powerful and less permissive, they eventually organized into a larger covenant that, as you can see in Secrets of the Covenants, allows them to be more connected, even with their differing individual beliefs.

                    Some may embrace it to reject christian allegory, but that's not what made it.
                    Fairs fair mate. I probably should have been more clear, but yes you are correct. There are many belief systems older the christian story. But lets us take it a step further. Christian first started as a cult within judaism

                    The question then becomes what molded it the church as we know it? If the circle is a loose collective of cults and beliefs, would not a cult of christianty be viewed side by side with the circle? But a metamorphoses must have taken place. Did the adoption of the religion by the collected state masses also have an effect on the parasites that feed from them? Truth be told I have not read the Lance book in some time. I've been taking cues more from Saint practices, a few darkages books and some old world lasombra.

                    There's Zen Carthians mentioned in the Carthian book, who just try to make sure they do as little damage as possible. The closer you get to actual Buddhism I think the less like a covenant the group would be. A vampire could conceivably wall themselves up in a monastery far from the world and meditate without ever infringing on domains.

                    A pseudo-Shinto system of the Circle of the Crone exists in the Amanotsukai faction. They believe the Crone is Amaterasu, who wishes them to purge the world of impurity, and have gifted vampires with the ability to take that purity from others.
                    Very interesting.

                    And again it seems the circle and lance are closer by at least 2k years. But I subscribe to the thought process that Religion is the excuse and not the reason we go to war


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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by MercSet View Post
                      Fairs fair mate. I probably should have been more clear, but yes you are correct. There are many belief systems older the christian story. But lets us take it a step further. Christian first started as a cult within judaism
                      Yes, but 'cult' doesn't automatically mean Circle of the Crone. And those are real religions, not the covenants.

                      The question then becomes what molded it the church as we know it?
                      The Testament of Longinus, really. An angel appeared before a vampire and told him gods plan for them.

                      If the circle is a loose collective of cults and beliefs, would not a cult of christianty be viewed side by side with the circle?
                      A cult of Christianity, perhaps. But that is where things end. While the Circle is ostensibly a religion, it is much more a spiritual way of life. It doesn't require converts or even practitioners beyond the self. The point of the Lancea et Sanctum is bringing everyone under one roof and is openly hostile against other belief systems. And, in this case, these are twisted vampire covenants and not a 1:1 conversion of pagan beliefs and more organized religion.

                      Truth be told I have not read the Lance book in some time. I've been taking cues more from Saint practices, a few darkages books and some old world lasombra.
                      I imagine it's all there. I can understand linking them to the Lasombra but the Lasombra, as far as I remember and admittedly not being that well read with VtM, much more like vampires who due to region latched onto the Vatican as a source of power. It's a thematic thing, at least it seemed to me. The Lance have an actual vampire bible detailing the accounts of their founder with various angels who delivered to him the Word of God.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MercSet View Post
                        I'm actually really curious how a Shinto or Buddhist bent to vampirism would be styled like? And how much Jungian archetypes pop up
                        For Buddhism there are the Sakadagami of Thailand (and possibly surrounding area) as detailed in Ancient Mysteries and Ancient Bloodlines. They are actually fairly close to what you imagine when you think "Buddhist vampires", but the Beast will out nonetheless (which is shown in aspects like teachers tending more towards teaching through pain than one might expect from mortal practitioners). Most importantly perhaps, they have their own version of the Coils of the Dragon, leading some to presume that Dracula actually got the first ones from them. However, in the context of 2e they would probably be very different. Their powers are like the original Coils in 1e, more about denial and self-control than improved capability (so the Coil of the Wyrm and Voivode would be out-of-theme as written).

                        The Bloodline of the Kuufukuji is in a similar vein (Bloodlines: the Legendary).

                        As for Shinto, I believe there was an Amaterasu cult in the Circle of the Crone book and of course there are the Ume in 2e's Tokyo with their Kigan (http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...kigan-expanded).


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by nofather View Post

                          Yes, but 'cult' doesn't automatically mean Circle of the Crone. And those are real religions, not the covenants.



                          The Testament of Longinus, really. An angel appeared before a vampire and told him gods plan for them.
                          I think you're giving a little bit too much credit to self severing parasites. The whole point of chronicles have indefinite origins, is that nothing can be taken at face value

                          A cult of Christianity, perhaps. But that is where things end. While the Circle is ostensibly a religion, it is much more a spiritual way of life. It doesn't require converts or even practitioners beyond the self. The point of the Lancea et Sanctum is bringing everyone under one roof and is openly hostile against other belief systems. And, in this case, these are twisted vampire covenants and not a 1:1 conversion of pagan beliefs and more organized religion.
                          no no. The Lance is as powerful and connected as it is Because it reflects a powerful and connected mortal religion. The point I'm getting at is that Vamps twist what is already there and what they bring into the long night from their mortal lives. If the catholic church wasn't as powerful as it became during the last 1k years. The Lance wouldn't be a covenant but another weird judaic cult

                          The brutal campaigne against Circle is nothing more than the reflection of the church going after pagan cults, and a few vamps taking advantage of the conflict to off a number of rivals. Thus limiting the influence of paganism. But because vampires are vampires they're hard to kill and long "lived"

                          I imagine it's all there. I can understand linking them to the Lasombra but the Lasombra, as far as I remember and admittedly not being that well read with VtM, much more like vampires who due to region latched onto the Vatican as a source of power. It's a thematic thing, at least it seemed to me. The Lance have an actual vampire bible detailing the accounts of their founder with various angels who delivered to him the Word of God.
                          Their motifs of christian monsters rings well with the Lance. And again I think you're giving a little bit too much credit to self severing parasites.


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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MercSet View Post
                            I think you're giving a little bit too much credit to self severing parasites. The whole point of chronicles have indefinite origins, is that nothing can be taken at face value
                            It doesn't matter what I believe in this regard, its their belief. And bringing up the existence of god in Chronicles of Darkness one way or another gets the same reactions it does in real life. Suffice to say, there is a book, and the vampires believe it.

                            no no. The Lance is as powerful and connected as it is Because it reflects a powerful and connected mortal religion. The point I'm getting at is that Vamps twist what is already there and what they bring into the long night from their mortal lives. If the catholic church wasn't as powerful as it became during the last 1k years. The Lance wouldn't be a covenant but another weird judaic cult

                            The brutal campaigne against Circle is nothing more than the reflection of the church going after pagan cults, and a few vamps taking advantage of the conflict to off a number of rivals. Thus limiting the influence of paganism. But because vampires are vampires they're hard to kill and long "lived"
                            Yes, but I'd argue that's more because aggressive conversion gathers more converts than passive beliefs, as opposed to it being a reflection of the church. Especially when it's coupled with the persecution of others and the destruction of knowledge. It works. One could point out the other way, Carthians are meant to represent the new order that came about after feudalism, but in the vampire society, rising up against that old hierarchy didn't work so well. That said, obviously it's why organized religions have done so well.

                            Their motifs of christian monsters rings well with the Lance. And again I think you're giving a little bit too much credit to self severing parasites.
                            There's plenty of holes to poke in the story. The aforementioned Ancient Mythologies, for instance, has a member of the Servants of Ra who was using Theban rituals well before the Romans came over and killed them in the name of the 'One True God.' It's a good book, lots of interesting things in it. But I'm trying to stick to in-world rationale.
                            Last edited by nofather; 12-17-2016, 04:02 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by nofather View Post

                              It doesn't matter what I believe in this regard, its their belief. And bringing up the existence of god in Chronicles of Darkness one way or another gets the same reactions it does in real life. Suffice to say, there is a book, and the vampires believe it.
                              In setting in game yeah I get behind that

                              Yes, but I'd argue that's more because aggressive conversion gathers more converts than passive beliefs, as opposed to it being a reflection of the church. Especially when it's coupled with the persecution of others and the destruction of knowledge. It works. One could point out the other way, Carthians are meant to represent the new order that came about after feudalism, but in the vampire society, rising up against that old hierarchy didn't work so well. That said, obviously it's why organized religions have done so well.
                              The themes and ideals of the rich controlling the poor is not exactly something we've completely broken away from, in the practical sense. I can say I am my own man, but I've still got to make rent. We may not call it feudalism, and the extremes are no longer excused as often, and the working class is no longer literally tied to the land. but the finical mobility is still very difficult. and even within the political, social, and legal arenas, the wealthy have the advantage of wealth to bear, while the working class is still meaking it out. It's a continual back and forth. Although the stage has changed and equalized to a degree the push and pull is still there.

                              The Carthians are the cry of I have nothing and I will change it. The invitus is the cry of I have the power I make the rules I will def the game state. The carts pushing the status quo and the Invit stopping the advance, because the status quo favors them.

                              Organized religions do well because of wealth and influence control. Indulgence and control of the belief system are powerful tools. And what we've seen within the witch hunts is the attempt and largely successful monopolization of people belief systems. If a group of peasants have an alternative to salvation and repentance what do they need the church for? Thus was why the Lutheranism movement was such a shock to the system. The Pope isn't powerful because he is literally the voice of god, but because the people say he is the voice of god. Its the power people assign to things and beliefs. Religion is merely the tool for structure. The important thing to ask is what it is being used for?

                              And all that goes back to the implied and in some cases defacto alliance of the first and second state. The status quo favors me I will keep it. and the status quo in most cities favors the church. Due to good PR the church is seen as the safe religion to support

                              There's plenty of holes to poke in the story. The aforementioned Ancient Mythologies, for instance, has a member of the Servants of Ra who was using Theban rituals well before the Romans came over and killed them in the name of the 'One True God.' It's a good book, lots of interesting things in it. But I'm trying to stick to in-world rationale.
                              And here we go back to ideas of where blood sorcery comes from? Circle's Cruca coming from the darker beast and the Faith based Theban. Blood or Will?
                              Last edited by MercSet; 12-17-2016, 04:40 PM. Reason: spelling


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