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  • Swarm form

    To attack those within her swarm, roll Strength + Brawl, ignoring Defense. Divide the damage however you wish among those inside. Apply a victim’s armor to the damage normally. The damage is lethal (bashing to Kindred). Alternately, a success may instead allow the vampire to take one Vitae from a victim.


    Does this mean that the attacking swarm of bats uses its bat strength or its normal strength? Can you use your protean claws in swarm form?


  • #2
    The vampire's own Strength + Brawl. I'd say you can activate Predatory/Unnatural Aspects in Swarm Form as you can with Beast Skin as is a variant.


    I'm So Meta Even This Acronym

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    • #3
      beast's skin says that you use the physicals of the animal you have taken. So I would say that you use your bat's attack pool. But that's just my take on it.


      "In animal form, she takes on the beast’s Physical Attributes
      and Skills, and its Size, Speed, and Health"

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      • #4
        I just use the Swarm Tilt from Demon. It's much cleaner.


        Onyx Path Forum Moderator

        My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

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        • #5
          Are you allowed to reproduce the text of that Tilt for those of us that haven't purchased Demon yet?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Kvark View Post
            Are you allowed to reproduce the text of that Tilt for those of us that haven't purchased Demon yet?
            That's probably fine.

            Swarm (Environmental)
            Animals of Size 1 are generally best represented by swarms, ocks and other groupings of the animals. Swarms are measured by their radius in yards. A swarm inflicts one point of bashing damage to anyone within its radius. A swarm can inflit more damage by condensing. Every time the swarm condenses to cover half of its full area, it inflictd one additional point of damage per turn.
            Therefore, a swarm of eight yards in radius inflicts two bashing damage per turn if it constricts down to a four- yard radius, three bashing if it halves that again to a two-yard radius, and four bashing damage per turn it if condensed itself down to a one-yard radius. Though condensing doesn’t usually happen all that often in nature (save in the case of creatures such as killer bees), it is an easy enough thing for a being with supernatural powers to command them to do so.
            Armor is effective against a swarm only if it covers one’s full body, but even then it provides only half its rating. In addition, targets are distracted by the swarm, suffering –2 dice on all rolls while they are within the radius, even if they’re not specifically attacked.
            Causing the Tilt: The Swarm Exploit can cause this Tilt, as can similar powers from non-demonic sources. The Tilt can occur naturally if someone disturbs a nest of bees.
            Ending the Tilt: The swarm cannot be attacked with fists, clubs, swords or guns. Only area-effect attacks such as a torch affect it. Each point of damage inflicted by a flame or other applicable attack halves the swarm’s size. Once the swarm is reduced below a one-yard radius, either all insects are dead or the few remaining disperse.


            Onyx Path Forum Moderator

            My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

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            • #7
              I read it to mean that you use the Vampires strength. Yeah a bat might only have 1 STR but how many are in that swarm? A dozen, a few dozen? It's obviously not 12 STR but it's more than 1 unless you want to roll 12+ attacks with 1 STR.
              Last edited by Rathamus; 12-06-2016, 04:10 PM.

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              • #8
                The Swarm Form ability use the vampire's Strength + Brawl for attacks.


                I'm So Meta Even This Acronym

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                • #9

                  The vampire could potentially have a ton more strength than a tiger, but when they turn into a tiger with Beast's skin, which swarm form is Beast's skin, they still have to use the tiger's strength and brawl. Swarm form says "While using beast's skin" and beast's skin says "use the animal's stats.. ect" Why would swarm form be the exception and use the vampire's stats?
                  I am not saying your take on using the vampire's stats is wrong. I am just asking for how you got there.



                  But as charlaquin said, using the swarm tilt from demon solves all that. :

                  Therefore, a swarm of eight yards in radius inflicts two bashing damage per turn if it constricts down to a four- yard radius, three bashing if it halves that again to a two-yard radius, and four bashing damage per turn it if condensed itself down to a one-yard radius. Though condensing doesn’t usually happen all that often in nature (save in the case of creatures such as killer bees), it is an easy enough thing for a being with supernatural powers to command them to do so.

                  ​I like this explanation of it.
                  Last edited by Vitalis; 12-07-2016, 10:12 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Using one animal's stats means you're attacking with one animal. That's explicitly not the case with Swarm Form where you can deal damage to multiple targets.
                    While the rules doesn't say so (and RAW actually is using the animal's stats) it makes more sense using the vampire's own stats since animals of Size 1 have atrocious dice pools and animals of Size 0 might even be reduced to a chance die (if it weren't for Vigor). The largest of the four paragraphs describing the Merit relates to combat so I believe the Merit is supposed to be viable in combat. This would not be the case unless the user has both Protean 3 and decent Vigor, two disciplines that doesn't share a clan.
                    Last edited by Tessie; 12-07-2016, 11:20 AM.


                    Bloodline: The Stygians

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                    • #11
                      Vampires normal stats. Swarm Form *replaces* the discipline's normal effect. It doesnt modify it.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SoulGambit View Post
                        Vampires normal stats. Swarm Form *replaces* the discipline's normal effect. It doesnt modify it.

                        Actually it doesnt replace it, it does modify it by giving you a swarm form. It literally says while using the discipline.

                        " When taking the Beast’s Skin, some Gangrel can instead become a swarm of small creatures: Size 0 or Size 1 animals. " So instead of 1 predatory animal, it can now be a swarm But it still says while using the discipline.

                        Edit: however, if it really does replace the discipline and you are using something completely different, that would mean you do not have to spend the 2 vitae to change shapes.
                        Edit again,..: And that you dont get additional animals.
                        Last edited by Vitalis; 12-07-2016, 11:28 AM.

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                        • #13
                          And this is why I prefer to just use the Tilt.


                          Onyx Path Forum Moderator

                          My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

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                          • #14
                            As written it does use the animal's strength, so as written you roll (30 or 60sh?) bat attacks with the bat's STR and the vampires Brawl, some of which will certainly explode with 10's.
                            Both Charlaquin's way and using the vampires STR are shortcuts to avoid that mess.
                            Last edited by Rathamus; 12-07-2016, 02:24 PM.

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                            • #15
                              You do not roll for each individual creature in the swarm. Nothing in the rules says that.


                              Bloodline: The Stygians

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