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  • #16

    Originally posted by WaywardPaladin View Post
    As ST I would probably have your vampire able to control all but natural sunlight.

    That in itself would become a story hook as to why it is so unique, and not as malleable as fire was for you.

    Maybe allow you to come to some degree of sunlight protection after some big spiritual epiphany.
    Originally posted by WaywardPaladin View Post
    The second possibility being the logical conclusion of photokinesis. You're not being hit by the sun rays because you're bending them around you without letting them touch you.

    Of course you are now completely blind because no light is reaching your eyes unless you have some other method for visualization, and you look like a weird spatial anomaly so it isn't exactly subtle.
    This was how I saw it starting and turning out to be. The big spiritual epiphany in the case would be using Ziva's 5th coil, Shedding the Beast’s Skin, like I mentioned above. That is the thing with how I see and play with the disciplines/powers, they're not just "checkboxes" they are spiritual experiences and drama pieces in scenes.

    Just imagine, becoming human again... And then suffering the Embrace one more time... Good that he is a full grade Impaled.

    The rage and frustration of realizing his grand plan was not perfect after all, followed by the exhilaration of having another problem to solve... Painful experiments in allowing certain spectra through the barrier to see if they burn... Musings on whether it is finally time to embrace and master the Beast and through Protean mutations make do without eyesight...

    The alien inhumanity in it all is just delicious.

    Originally posted by WaywardPaladin View Post
    Another possibility is to do it like Dracula actually acts in Stoker's book. You can go out in the sunlight, you don't burst into flames. But you're discomforted by it, and cut off from your supernatural powers and vulnerable. So maybe it takes a great deal of concentration to resist the sun, and you can't spend blood for any reason while exposed to it.
    ​/

    That just doesn't have the weird and alien feel I look for in such a milestone accomplishment for this character. It smells too much of the lethargy that was beat with Surmount the Daysleep. Plus he already doesn't burst into flames by light and short exposure, being that he has Sun's Forgotten Kiss and relatively high Humanity for such a old and powerful vampire.

    Originally posted by WaywardPaladin View Post
    That being the big thing here. The Ordo trade the drama of the Banes for the story fodder that is transcending the self. I don't see a lot of talk about your character's paradigm or anything, just spending XP and checking off prerequisite boxes for power.
    Usually people are not very interested in discussing specifics of a particular chronicle. Specially takes of a particular character, it might might just be my perception of it but "hey look this is my supercool character and this is his *half-assed metaphysical drivel* and his goals are the dreams of many Corebook Ordo vamps, so totally unique (not)." Tends to not generate much talk.

    So I talk mechanics because it touches base and creates common ground with people who might otherwise be uninterested on the thread. And while I do not view mechanics as physics, I certainly view, and deal with, mechanics as story hooks and set pieces. I also believe I hinted enough at "only know through playing" that I didn't assume this would work even if I invested the exp, I just want the greenlight from the ST to try and have a chance that, if dramatically appropriate, it could work.

    But if you're interested in the context here is a very brief summary.

    The Chronicle happens in a fictitious mega island that replaces beach paradise Fernando de Noronha with a industrial petrol rich shipping hub mega city. The group were all embraced in the 1860s and a few years later oil was discovered in shallow basin and the boom started. The city was ruled by the First and Second Estates, with no presence from the Movement or the Circle, and very little presence of the Ordo.

    My character is a main land gentleman scholar of good birth who was involved with a couple of secret societies that dealt with paranormal investigation, mind expansion and table-turning seance. He was Embraced by an infatuated degenerate who was in turn put to final death for Embracing without permission. My character was saved by intervention of a Ordo elder that knew him from the esoteric circles that both mingled in.

    At first he despised his condition and all manner of supernatural ways of influencing people, so he only developed the physical side of his condition (in which he shamefully reveled in, being that he was an outdoors man and field scholar pursuer of manly pursuits). The elder was a bit disappointed at first let him be. After some time spent on accepting/understanding their conditions and wetting their feet in Kindred society and politics (and giving some time to work on personal projects) the ST sprung the first outside non-vampiric threat on us. A cult of pyromaniac (and pyrokinetic) Arabic petrol magnates and their cronies.

    They somehow knew the hideouts of many vampires and a purge began. After the initial ashes of the purge set, the Spear was severely weakened and the Ordo found itself with bounty of scared bloodsuckers willing to do anything to be taught how to survive the flames (this was around the time when the Ordo preview came out). The Ordo elder then showed my character how many were willing to grovel to learn something that would be "freely given" to him, if only he had interest. Pragmatism (and a bit of greed and fear) won out and my character dived into learning the Coil of the Ascendant. He was a prodigy and quickly mastered each rung. His respect for others and stoicism (now heavily mixed with masochism) also meant the trajectory was very painful, as he refused any test subject other than himself.

    Shortly he fell in with the Impaled and Swore to the Axe, as the elder seethed for he wanted him for the Mysteries. As he saw the pyromaniac cult the most severe threat to his fellows he, against orders, took to infiltrating the cult. Long story short, the cult was brought to the island by machinations of the Ordo, to eliminate the Spear and take their position as the mystical partners of the Invictus in ruling the city.

    His head spinning, he put together his understanding of "mind expansion", the psychic nature of this cult's fire control and the Mysteries elder's promises about knowing how to open his vampiric nature "to the vastness of the living mind", and he knew then what he would do.

    That is the start of how he became a pyrokinetic vampire. I plan on just having him spontaneously developing Pyrokinetic Resistance, and upon figuring that out developing an all consuming obsession (dare I say, hope?) in expanding that to Sunlight, by diving headlong into new science about the nature of light and new excruciating experimentation.

    I think his pursuit of the Coil of Ziva will also see his experimentation ethics erode, as he searches for Humanity in Blood.

    Well, I told you in the beginning that this kind of talk was corny!
    Last edited by TGUEIROS; 01-09-2017, 08:29 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by MCN View Post
      For me, its mostly because I really play up the weaknesses. Cruac spell got you down? Expose it to sunlight or flame. Shrivel right up. Things like that. Its mostly a matter of taste, however. The devs and writers have mentioned that they wouldnt' recommend it either, but I'm going to say its not a hard rule. What kind of game does your ST want to allow? Buying up any psychic merit is not a given, it always up to the ST to approve.

      "Superhero" tends to be used as a dirty insult of "something you're not supposed to do." It has mostly superficial meaning, implying a lack of horror and pulpy, action-oriented gaming with gonzo twinked out characters. Nevermind that modern superhero stories have plenty of personal horror and consequences.
      Yeah, I caught the wiff of condescension, but wanted to try to understand where he is coming from instead of dismissing his opinion.

      Originally posted by SoulGambit View Post
      You make an interesting case for how vampire can be similar to a superhero story, but you didnt answer how letting you have something I wouldnt normally allow plays into the themes of requiem as a whole and your ST's game in particular.

      After all, part of the Ordo Dracule's thing is that they havent succeeded yet. If you get this, that means that aspect of the great work is done. Finished. Ordo Dracule becomes full of daywalkers.
      I think the explorations of themes like obsession, experimentation, achievement, frustration, inhumanity, frustration and adaptation is a valid reason for you to get out of your comfort zone a bit.

      We play a many times sandboxy game. Many times the ST is not feeling particularly inspired and is happy to let us pursuit our personal agendas and goals (dreams, maybe?). I don't feel that I need to have every fantasy of mine serve a greater purpose for it to deserve to be fulfilled. Many times our ST has created stories based on the outcomes of things he wasn't particularly fond of, but that surprised him with cool ideas to run with.

      As to the ordo being full of daywalkers... Disregarding the sheer magnitude of power involved in what I'm talking about and how difficult it is to achieve, if that is how things worked people would be identical by now. A person would see another succeed and would copy it and succeed too. We would all be filthy rich doctor engineers businessmen Olympic athletes master thespians virtuosos. Since we are not, that is not a particularly strong argument to make in denying achievement to someone.

      Originally posted by Maitrecorbo View Post
      Another thing to consider is that the vampires weakness to the sun is not necessarily something scientific and logical.
      By that i mean its may not just be the light of the sun that is harmful to the kindred. The sun itself (just its presence in the sky above) may be enough to hurt the kindred.
      I may be a bit of a jerk st for that but i would allow you the whole control light thing only to find out it doesnt do anything to mitigate the damage from the sun :P
      That would be a bit less obnoxious (and not just plain wrong) if the Corebook didn't directly contradict you:

      "A character can avoid damage from sunlight only with complete
      coverage from its rays. If she only exposes her eyes, for example to run
      for shelter, consider her Blood Potency one step lower on the chart."

      So besides being a bit of a jerk move it would also be against RAW and RAI.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by TGUEIROS View Post
        So, I have this Daeva Ordo character for a few years now (at 114 exp). He has Ascendancy and Zirnitra at 5 (and starting Ziva, now that it is complete and he is a Twilight Judge). I have a bunch of Supernatural Merits and when Hurt Locker came out I was very psyched (pun intended) to acquire even more at bargain prices. It was then that I found the seemingly innocuous Psychokinetic Resistance 1 dot merit and had an epiphany.

        I already have Pyrokinesis and Ascendancy (He is a very, very feared Sworn of the Axe and Sheriff of the domain)
        I don't believe you can belong to two Sworns, as an Axe I think you're ineligible for Twilight Judge.

        Originally posted by TGUEIROS View Post

        For Pyrokinesis I had Resilience 3, which is enough to downgrade the highest per turn damage the Corebook offers to bashing.

        I'm thinking of suggesting that at Resilience 5, Ascendant 5, Photokinesis * and Psychic Resistance I could downgrade Sunlight to lethal and after reaching Ziva five and experiencing Shedding, maybe allow for the Armor to work... Who knows, that would be almost a year in the future if I dedicate the character to that.
        The highest damage from fire in the core is 6 for a size Inferno heat Chemical fire.
        Also I haven't the Merits in question but Resistance doesn't work on sunlight and armour rarely works on Aggravated.

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        • #19
          See, the paradigm is what I am interested in to address the concerns that others expressed about your experience being repeatable enough that it would be a world changing event as the Ordo on the island and then further out beg for knowledge of the miracle and then it spreads.

          Aside from what sounds like the difficulty in replicating the ecstatic epiphany in pain your character sounds capable of there is also the notion of the Coil only lets you awaken "potentials" you already had as a human, a convenient way to explain why it isn't a sure fix for everyone else.

          Of course while it is as simple as spending XP per the book, in the fluff the Coils have never become a rote procedure, with so many having to hit upon the unique eclectic mix of metaphysical drivel, as you say, to ignite and refine their particular soul.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Live Bait View Post
            I don't believe you can belong to two Sworns, as an Axe I think you're ineligible for Twilight Judge.
            I don't have, or read, the old Ordo book, and maybe that is something explained there. But I haven't seen anything that says that a Twilight Judge is a type of Sworn.

            There are three types of Sworn, Axe, Mysteries and Dying Light. Twilight Judge is;

            "... a
            respected position trusted with rendering final judgments in
            internal debates."


            Originally posted by Live Bait View Post
            The highest damage from fire in the core is 6 for a size Inferno heat Chemical fire.
            Also I haven't the Merits in question but Resistance doesn't work on sunlight and armour rarely works on Aggravated.
            While you are technically right, the pitch was about holding my hand over a bunsen burner (interestingly,not unlike the SotC art), not taking the T1000 dive.

            As to aggravated damage being unaffected by Armor, that is not really true. Claws of the Unholy specifically says Armor not generated by Resilience (Resistance is WoD) is disregarded. While Feeding the Crone makes no such mention, so Armor works normally on those bites. So unless a power, be it bashing, lethal or aggravated, specifically says it ignores Armor I wouldn't assume that it does.

            Last edited by TGUEIROS; 01-09-2017, 09:38 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by WaywardPaladin View Post
              See, the paradigm is what I am interested in to address the concerns that others expressed about your experience being repeatable enough that it would be a world changing event as the Ordo on the island and then further out beg for knowledge of the miracle and then it spreads.

              Aside from what sounds like the difficulty in replicating the ecstatic epiphany in pain your character sounds capable of there is also the notion of the Coil only lets you awaken "potentials" you already had as a human, a convenient way to explain why it isn't a sure fix for everyone else.

              Of course while it is as simple as spending XP per the book, in the fluff the Coils have never become a rote procedure, with so many having to hit upon the unique eclectic mix of metaphysical drivel, as you say, to ignite and refine their particular soul.
              Yeah, like I touched upon on my reply to SoulGambit, its not like if you give some the same training regimen as Usain Bolt or Michael Phelps you're going to get Usain Bolt and Michael Phelps again. We have taught millions (billions?) of people more and better physics than Einstein or Tesla had, and yet where are the new Teslas and Einsteins? You can put someone through the best schools for Art, Chemistry and Engineering and they will not even scratch the genius of Da Vinci.

              Throw supernatural mumbo jumbo on top of that and the lack of replication is the standard state. If you want replication your story would have to be about being revolutionary teacher that developed a revolutionary method that actually produces certain results, not the other way around.

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              • #22
                Twilight Judge is a position within Dying Light.


                Bloodline: The Stygians
                Ordo Dracul Mystery: Coil of Smoke

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                  Twilight Judge is a position within Dying Light.
                  Well, even if that is written somewhere in 2e, we didn't see it and that boat has sailed a long time ago, the character is a Sworn of the Axe Twilight Judge.The Merit says nothing of it and doesn't even have the Sworn Merit as prerequisite, so as far as 2e RAW (as far as I can tell) you don't even have to be Sworn to be a Twilight Judge.

                  PS If anything it should be a Mysteries position, being that it is the "ruling/management" branch of the order.
                  Last edited by TGUEIROS; 01-09-2017, 09:51 PM.

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                  • #24
                    You're right about there not being a Sworn requirement in Secrets of the Covenants. That may or may not change in the final version.
                    In the Ordo Dracul book Twilight Judge was a position within the Sworn of the Dying Light. Just wanted to clear up the confusion.

                    Edit: As for why it's Dying Light instead of Mysteries; I think it's because Dying Light also holds a lot of internal politics. Ordo Dracul is a Covenant based around research. The Twilight Judge is the one who decides what research is okay or not, and what research should receive support in forms of resources. Tbh, I think that makes Mysteries all but pointless. If that interpretation is correct Mysteries is basically relegated to being the outwards face for a Covenant that is the least interested in other Covenants (aside from maybe stealing their secret magics).
                    Last edited by Tessie; 01-09-2017, 10:50 PM.


                    Bloodline: The Stygians
                    Ordo Dracul Mystery: Coil of Smoke

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by TGUEIROS View Post
                      So, I have this Daeva Ordo character for a few years now (at 114 exp). He has Ascendancy and Zirnitra at 5 (and starting Ziva, now that it is complete and he is a Twilight Judge). I have a bunch of Supernatural Merits and when Hurt Locker came out I was very psyched (pun intended) to acquire even more at bargain prices. It was then that I found the seemingly innocuous Psychokinetic Resistance 1 dot merit and had an epiphany.

                      I already have Pyrokinesis and Ascendancy (He is a very, very feared Sworn of the Axe and Sheriff of the domain), so Fire was but a nuissance already, but take the Merit mentioned above and its a complete non-issue. I then thought hell, why not take Photokinesis and have armor against light?! Is it a way to beat the Pain of Purity?

                      Ascendancy reduces Blood Potency in regards to the Sun (through Blush of Life and blood expenditure)
                      Ziva keeps your hold on Humanity (also, does the first dot include the "Great Banes" in it's effect? I, and the ST, assume it does, but would be good to hear from others.)
                      Zirnitra allows for the supernatural merits purchase.

                      With "X"kinesis and Psychokinetic Resistance you get Armor (in the amount of the main Merit) against the "X" energy damage. Pyrokinesis gives you armor against fire, and Photokinesis against light, would any of you, as STs, allow it to work against Sunlight? I haven't discussed this with the ST, but I think he will go for it, but I will probably only find out in character.

                      I also loved the Psychic Vampire minor template. I'm also thinking of pursuing it. I love that it will be used to feed my psychic powers (through Willpower draining), but I am eagerly anticipating the psychological and metaphysical questions of becoming even more of a "black hole" (as in bleeding two forms of life energy now, instead of one, doubling the need for predatory feeding). What are you all's opinion of this? Would you allow students of Zirnitra's Coil to purchase one (and probably only one, as the book says you shouldn't mix minor templates) minor template?

                      If you would, and specifically talking of Psychic Vampire, how interesting would you make the interaction of both hungers? Would you make Vitae and Ephemera exchangeable? Interact in some way? Not interact at all?

                      Thanks in advance for insights and opinions, for or against any of the ideas presented above.

                      *I foresee eschatology in the horizon, the Lance in the domain are about to go pretty mad!*
                      Is your character even really a vampire anymore with that many coils and mutant powers, I mean he has to be nearing Golconda.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                        You're right about there not being a Sworn requirement in Secrets of the Covenants. That may or may not change in the final version.
                        In the Ordo Dracul book Twilight Judge was a position within the Sworn of the Dying Light. Just wanted to clear up the confusion.

                        Edit: As for why it's Dying Light instead of Mysteries; I think it's because Dying Light also holds a lot of internal politics. Ordo Dracul is a Covenant based around research. The Twilight Judge is the one who decides what research is okay or not, and what research should receive support in forms of resources. Tbh, I think that makes Mysteries all but pointless. If that interpretation is correct Mysteries is basically relegated to being the outwards face for a Covenant that is the least interested in other Covenants (aside from maybe stealing their secret magics).
                        Was it just for decisions based on research matters in 1e? Because right now they have power to arbitrate on any internal matter, up to and including letting outsiders partake in the Ordo's secrets.

                        If they return to be only Dying Light, maybe it makes sense, in a distorted unfair way, that the people who do the "real work (creation, studying and teaching) of Coils)" get to make the final decisions.

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                        • #27
                          "I think the explorations of themes like obsession, experimentation, achievement, frustration, inhumanity, frustration and adaptation is a valid reason for you to get out of your comfort zone a bit."

                          All of which are undermined by actually succeeding. Once youbsycceed, you can no l9nger tell the tale of the journey.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by TGUEIROS View Post

                            Was it just for decisions based on research matters in 1e? Because right now they have power to arbitrate on any internal matter, up to and including letting outsiders partake in the Ordo's secrets.
                            No it pertained to "any" chapterhouse specific or covenantwide legislation. If even the lowest ranked Mysteries declared that covenant wide proprietary knowledge or even text exchange with anyone who is not a fully recognized member is forbidden the Twilight Judge couldn't declare an exception. (He has to abide by standing laws.) Unless of course they got consent from a Mysteries Sworn who out ranked the one who made the declaration. Or perhaps if they are in a state of emergency, at which point they could broach the suggestion as an olive branch to an Axe Sworn. It largely depends on the Dying Light member but they tend to be disintetested in micromanaging since it distracts from their research, which is what they care about. Anyone Mysteries Sworn got into their position BECAUSE they know how to compromise to get things done on a social level.

                            It's not unfair, those most knowledgeable of the situation requiring a decision are best equipped to make a suitable decision and that was exactly the reasoning behind the division of power. Axe Sworn get the first shares of the spoils of "war" because they often do the heavy lifting of securing and defending Ordo owned nests. (Hearkening back to the times when those military often made their fortunes looting in war with permission to do so serving as an incentive to volunteer) they secured the area so they know best how to use the resources in an area. (Unless they had help from another Oath, an Unsworn or outsider. At which point adjudication by the Dying Light or Mysteries may be or had been necessary.) The Dying Light being the ones to do the actual research and experimentation thus getting their discoveries made and replicating the results are best qualified for deciding how that knowledge should be best used or avoided as too dangerous. But it is ultimately Mysteries working to prevent the covenant from being sabotaged or driven out of a domain by outsiders presenting a positive spin on their activities and ensuring they aren't maneuvered out of their holdings. I kind of agree with Tessie, that the Mysteries Sworn are largely redundant and unnecessary especially if both the Axe and the Dying Light are pragmatic and can take a long view. (But realistically that's not the case) and if you read the Rites of the Dragon their establishment made sense at the time because Mara and Anoushka would have killed each other and torn the organization apart feuding over who was more important to the Great Work. Or worse, gotten the rest of kindred society turned against them and destroyed.
                            How that plays out now in 2nd edition, I've no idea since Dracula didn't establish the organization and they are now the youngest covenant in existence and Coils don't count for rank anymore.
                            Last edited by tsusasi; 01-11-2017, 09:19 AM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post

                              Is your character even really a vampire anymore with that many coils and mutant powers, I mean he has to be nearing Golconda.
                              That is a good question for in character/setting exploration. The aim is to become something more, to transcend a condition imposed to you. You may become something else entirely, losing who you are. Is it worth it? Are you really transcending, or are you becoming something so alien and twisted as to not be recognized, or recognizing your self, anymore? IS this actually better than what you were?

                              Originally posted by SoulGambit View Post
                              "I think the explorations of themes like obsession, experimentation, achievement, frustration, inhumanity, frustration and adaptation is a valid reason for you to get out of your comfort zone a bit."

                              All of which are undermined by actually succeeding. Once youbsycceed, you can no l9nger tell the tale of the journey.
                              "Success" is subjective, and the subject of examination is not fixed. You succeed at one thing and have other things to do, as hinted at the discussion with Wayward Paladin. This is true for most things, rarely is accomplishment in one feat the end of study and work for those interested in the subject.

                              Note that there is no written way to deactivate Psychokinetic Resistance, so that state of blindness and appearing to be "spatial/light distortion" may be permanent. And infuriating, frustrating, demoralizing, maddening... There are endless possibilities for exploration of in theme subjects that comes from "succeeding" at this. And I've only touched at the personal level stuff.

                              I'm not arguing for Twilight Style Light Sparkle here. I'm arguing for possibly turning into a mad, blind, blood hungry, spatial smudge elder horror. Possibly.

                              The character is actually very vain now, so that end state would be taken as a soul consuming failure. And if he can handle it, his every effort will turn to trying to "solve" this. With a very high probability of taking him even further away from "vampire", to say nothing of "human".


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                              • #30
                                tsusasi

                                Let me just say that admittedly corrupt, with clear mentions of self service and nepotism being said to be accepted, autocratic tecnhocracy is not a system that most people with postmodernic democratic sensibilities would label as "fair". I also think you should re examine your position that military control of forcefully seized assets is wise and fair. We have a few case studies in the numerous dilapidated countries left that way in the wake of military coups and subsequent dictatorial rule.

                                With that out of the way, if the seemingly expanded role that the Twilight Judge seems to be in 2e holds, it may be a way to loosen the way things work for particular Chapterhouses.

                                Like my character basically "strong armed" his way to the position, being that he is a master o two Coils, has an extremely feared esoteric power (among other little understood ones), has the backing of the legbreakers, and was pivotal to the political ascension of the Covenant in the city.

                                So he basically made a grab for power and there was nobody that thought it wise to stop him. I think it fits the theme of the Ordo very well.
                                Last edited by TGUEIROS; 01-10-2017, 09:58 AM. Reason: grammerz

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