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Can Ghouls Learn Devotions?

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  • Can Ghouls Learn Devotions?

    Exactly what it says in the title - can Ghouls be taught how to use Devotions?


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  • #2
    I don't believe so, I'd have to check the book to be certain though.

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    • #3
      The book doesn't say they can't. It doesn't really say that they can either though. I'd probably allow it if a player asked, but I'd probably say they need a teacher.


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      • #4
        Perhaps Half Damned will answer that question.

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        • #5
          I see no reason for not.


          Eu prefiro ser essa metamorfose ambulante,
          Do que ter aquela velha opinião formada sobre tudo,
          Sobre o que é o amor, sobre que eu nem sei quem sou.
          É chato chegar a um objetivo num instante,
          Eu prefiro ser essa metamorfose ambulante.

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          • #6
            Assuming that they meet the Discipline prereqs, I do not see why not.
            Last edited by Tymeaus Jalynsfein; 01-18-2017, 07:54 PM.


            The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary. - James. D. Nicoll

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            • #7
              I would say that they can, because there is a small list of what they can't learn and if devotions weren't allowed I feel like that would have been included on that list.

              Devotions are ultimately part of the discipline family and ghouls can learn disciplines the way vampires do. (with blood or a teacher... or both )
              Last edited by Vitalis; 01-19-2017, 02:46 PM.

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              • #8
                I'd rule they can with a vampire teacher.


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                • #9
                  On the other hand, revenants can't learn devotions and there's no "unless they knew them as a ghoul" clause.

                  Doesn't feel right for ghouls to be able to do it when revenants can't, IMHO.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                    On the other hand, revenants can't learn devotions and there's no "unless they knew them as a ghoul" clause.

                    Doesn't feel right for ghouls to be able to do it when revenants can't, IMHO.

                    Keep in mind that while ghouls have serious problems, revenants are seriously cursed--they're not just some kind of half-vampire but are more like 90% hungry beast and a rapidly fading sense of man in there somewhere. Ghouls are 90% man with something weird and feral scrabbling to get out.

                    That said, ghouls have in the past been forbidden to use disciplines that require spilling vitae, because their blood is not vitae. I could see that easily preventing certain devotions. Others, well, are just extensions or adaptations of existing Disciplines, so could be taught. You'd only want to imagine a ghoul inventing a new devotion under very unusual circumstances (centuries-old, long-term exposure to high-potency vitae, other supernatural influences, etc.).

                    --Khanwulf

                    PS. Of course, it's your story and this is really a small point.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                      On the other hand, revenants can't learn devotions and there's no "unless they knew them as a ghoul" clause.

                      Doesn't feel right for ghouls to be able to do it when revenants can't, IMHO.
                      Ghouls are not Revenants. I wouldn't base judgement on what one or the other can do because of the other. They aren't the same thing at all. They are created differently, they have a completely different rule base. One is alive, one is dead. I am sure that we will get more information on this in the half-damned book, but for now. I would say that since ghouls learn disciplines as vampires do, except that they can not USE the ones that spill vitae, they can still learn devotions as a vampire would.


                      Ghouls can use most Disciplines, including bloodline
                      Disciplines, but suffer some restrictions.

                      Learning Disciplines: Ghouls may learn Disciplines under
                      the same rules as Kindred. They may not learn Coils or Scales
                      of the Dragon.



                      Spilling Blood: If a Discipline power requires the user to
                      spill blood or feed it to someone (such as Raise the Familiar),
                      the ghoul may not use it. You as a player may buy the power on
                      the way to purchasing another one, however.



                      Many vampires develop the abilities listed here for each
                      Discipline, but some manifest new powers of the Blood. These
                      new Discipline techniques, called Devotions, can manifest
                      spontaneously in some Kindred, or can be developed by
                      careful honing of Discipline abilities. Once a vampire knows
                      a Devotion, she can teach it to another Kindred in much the
                      same way as the standard Discipline techniques
                      Last edited by Vitalis; 01-20-2017, 12:16 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Now, see, I can read all that and come to the exact opposite conclusion.

                        Ghouls learn disciplines under the same rules as kindred.

                        Vampires can teach devotions to other kindred.

                        Disciplines are not devotions. They are learned the same way for vampires, but nothing says they can be taught to ghouls at all.
                        Last edited by Elfive; 01-20-2017, 01:17 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                          Now, see, I can read all that and come to the exact opposite conclusion.

                          Ghouls learn disciplines under the same rules as kindred.

                          Vampires can teach devotions to other kindred.

                          Disciplines are not devotions. They are learned the same way for vampires, but nothing says they can be taught to ghouls at all.


                          I don't want to be a pain, but if something says "follow the same rules as kindred" then when it says , "can teach to other kindred" you are following those rules, and thus ghouls apply there. Because it specifically says to follow those rules.

                          By your logic when it says the following as it consistently uses the word Kindred, that ghouls can't learn them at all because no where does it say ghouls. But since it told us to use the same rules as the kindred would use, we can use these same rules as if the ghoul was kindred. because again.. it specifically said to do that.

                          Many Kindred spontaneously manifest new Disciplines, as
                          the Beast asserts itself in new and strange ways. The Blood
                          makes strong connections between vampires, so most Kindred
                          only display the Disciplines of their Clan. To learn another
                          Discipline, the vampire must first track down another vampire
                          who possesses the Discipline and drink at least one point of his
                          Vitae — with all of the attendant consequences.


                          Devotions are "Discipline techniques" They are new ways to use the discipline. An example would be Money. A devotion would be dollar bills. I have to have money in order to get dollar bills, just dollars are specialized money, but still money. Hmm maybe a better example of a devotion would be a 2 dollar bill or a silver dollar as they are more rare...

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                          • #14
                            From the perspective of a vampire, disciplines = devotions.

                            From the perspective of a discipline, ghouls = vampires.

                            But from the perspective of a ghoul disciplines =/= devotions, and from the perspective of a devotion ghouls =/= vampires.

                            Ghouls are treated as vampires by disciplines but not devotions, and devotions are treated as disciplines by vampires but not ghouls.

                            To use your money analogy, a Scottish pound counts as a pound in Scotland but not England, whereas an English pound works in both.

                            Scotland is a vampire, English pounds are disciplines, Scottish pounds are devotions, England is a ghoul.
                            Last edited by Elfive; 01-20-2017, 02:10 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                              From the perspective of a vampire, disciplines = devotions.

                              From the perspective of a discipline, ghouls = vampires.

                              But from the perspective of a ghoul disciplines =/= devotions, and from the perspective of a devotion ghouls =/= vampires.

                              Ghouls are treated as vampires by disciplines but not devotions, and devotions are treated as disciplines by vampires but not ghouls.

                              To use your money analogy, a Scottish pound counts as a pound in Scotland but not England, whereas an English pound works in both.

                              Scotland is a vampire, English pounds are disciplines, Scottish pounds are devotions, England is a ghoul.

                              Perhaps we are going to get a little confusing here, but no? Because Majesty for a ghoul and Majesty for a vampire are... exactly the same. They do not change from ghoul to vampire to even a revenant. They are all just Majesty. So when Saying Scotland uses A money and England uses B money because they are different countries... it implies they are too using different disciplines when they are not. They are using the exact same discipline.

                              You might have been better off with saying New York and New Mexico because they are not the same state, but they still use the same money. As Money is the discipline and it is exactly the same across the board for everyone who uses it.
                              The people in New York and the people in New Mexico can both earn the exact same kind of money, even though they are different and have their own rules/laws, but the money will always be the same.

                              Perhaps we should ditch the analogy and say Majesty is the discipline, Idol is a standard Discipline technique and Summoning is a Discipline technique. even though it is a devotion and not everyone has it, but not everyone has Idol either...
                              Last edited by Vitalis; 01-20-2017, 02:52 PM.

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