Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Obtenebration: BA how it works?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Obtenebration: BA how it works?

    Hello all,

    It's my very first post, so hi. I'm a quite old Vampire player since Masquerade Revised Edition. More or less 15 years of Vampire games as ST and player. Together with my friends we have specific style of play with heavy political focus with clear mechanical rules how things work. We enjoy such games.

    My question is. How BA works in current Vampire Requiem? Is the "shadow form" a size 5 shadowy person in 3d dimension or a ordinary flat shadow? If we assume it's a shadow, it can easily pass most doors under the tiny space between the door and the floor, but then can it easily fight ephemeral creatures without any difficulties since it's "flat?". If we assume it is a shadowy size 5 substance "in 3d" it can for sure fight ghost without any movement difficulties, but isn't it too big to pass the doors through the tiny gaps?

    Personally I imagine it as a flat shadow like all ordinary shadows, because it moves along solid objects. Can it fight a "flying" ghostly being which doesn't touch the floor? Can it pass through tiny spaces?

    Let me know what you think. What are your opinions? Answers without "ask you Storyteller", please. I want to know what was the main concept.

    Thanks in advance!
    Last edited by Edgar McAlister; 02-07-2017, 08:11 PM.

  • #2
    Khaibit can draw shadow to themselves, and become one with the darkness. To use the Ba, the Khaibit must be touching a shadow at least as big as herself (this could include her own shadow in many cases, or shadow created by the Tyet). She spends three points of Vitae, and at least one instant action, or more if her Blood Potency means she cannot spend the entirety in a turn. Once she’s become shadow, she’s immune to anything short of fire, sunlight, the Pseshkf, or things that specifically hurt ephemeral entities. Other ephemera can affect her normally. She is immune to abjuration.
    In this form, she cannot directly affect her environment. However, she can activate the Pseshkf if she possesses it, and can assail spirits and other ephemeral creatures. While in this form, fire, sunlight, and other forms of harm cause her two additional levels of damage. She travels at half her Speed, and must travel along solid objects. However, she’s not constrained by anything that wouldn’t stop light.
    http://theonyxpath.com/the-shadow-and-the-asp/
    I think 3d. A flying ephemeral could remain out of reach from melee but Tyet and Psheshkf would fix that problem, flying shadow weapons. I believe moving under gaps was replaced with moving through transparent materials.

    Comment


    • #3
      Diggs
      ​I friend of mine has a similar interpretation to your, but isn't the:
      and must travel along solid objects
      suggesting it should be more "flat" like ordinary shadow? The 3d interpretation could just walk or at least move like levitating, flying etc.
      Last edited by Edgar McAlister; 02-08-2017, 05:30 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        I would say 2D.

        Comment


        • #5
          I don't think it is possible for it to be 2d because then it would be invisible from an angle. There is no mention of the shadow person being harder to see. I think that also suggests that the person is not turned into an actual shadow. Paper-thin would be an option if you want that look, but consider that it might be cartoonish rather than scary and should not impede movement because of being "flat". These powers are supposed to be scary so appearance is a real concern.

          I think the power basically allows a person to become an ephemera being of shadow. I don't think a person dissolves into a shadow, rather the shadow would envelop the person. There is no indication that the shadow that was used goes away. This makes me think that the shadow person must remain tied to their shadow. I'm not sure if the person still casts a regular shadow, but there would at least be the limited "shadow" that exists when exposed to equal amounts of light from all directions. Normally it is not visible because one would be standing on it. You have to lift your foot to see it.

          Thinking of it in those terms, I think some part of the shadow person's body must maintain contact with a solid object. Walking is fine because one foot would remain on the "ground". Hence, moving speed is halved. Normal movement allows sprinting and jumping. These shadow people can't do that. Stairs aren't a problem. Wind and gravity are not forces that have any affect for the duration, so the character could walk or climb up walls. I tie movement to that shadow that is always there even when we can't see it. It means as long as that shadow bit is moving across solid objects that character is not hindered in where one can go.

          I think the intention was to prevent someone from using the power to walk on smoke or cloud, liquids got lumped in as well. These are things that a shadow can be cast upon so it was necessary to say something about it. So I think of it like someone that has to maintain contact with the Earth to access their power. In this case, it is any solid object. Now whether or not it would be possible to pick someone up or throw them if they are shadow is a question I have no answer for. They could probably be picked up by anyone solid that can affect shadow ephemera, which includes ephemeral beings. The shadow person's shadow would be touching the solid object known as the being picking the shadow up.

          That is the long version so I hope it is clear. Regardless of appearance, the shadow person would act as a 3d being subject to maintaining contact with solid objects. They are shadow rather than a shadow. It is like a Strix without the flying.
          Last edited by Diggs; 02-08-2017, 05:19 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Diggs View Post
            I think that also suggests that the person is not turned into an actual shadow.
            For me the "2d interpretation" suits more the description, but I would love to hear what was the developers concept.
            Khaibit can draw shadow to themselves, and become one with the darkness.
            Once she’s become shadow, she’s immune to anything short of fire, sunlight, the Pseshkf, or things that specifically hurt ephemeral entities.

            Originally posted by Diggs View Post
            Paper-thin would be an option if you want that look, but consider that it might be cartoonish rather than scary and should not impede movement because of being "flat".
            By "2d" I mean more or less paper-thin. It is my approximation to emphasize the two possible interpretations of how the BA works. In my opinion paper-thin shadow is scary enough, but I get it that some people see it as cartoonish.

            Probably the more important issue than visualizing how the shadow looks like exactly is what the shadow can do.
            She travels at half her Speed, and must travel along solid objects. However, she’s not constrained by anything that wouldn’t stop light.
            I guess that paper-thin shadow could squeeze under doors, furniture etc., but Diggs interpretation that it can only pass transparent objects seems reasonable too. Maybe some developers or Rose Bailey could explain those subtle nuances.
            Last edited by Edgar McAlister; 02-09-2017, 07:01 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              To make the most sense there are two ways to interpret 2D interpretation: first is that the character is still in 3D space in twilight but still prevents light from passing through this casting a shadow which is the only physical evidence of it's presence. The second is not actually 2 D either, but rather the shadow form exists only on the surface of of 3D objects, and basically moves across surfaces not throu open air. There is a third wierd hybrid option where it is the darkness cast by it's hypothetical position.

              The 3D option of just being a pitch back ephemeral version is much easier to conceptualize.

              Not reading the mechanic currently, just talking about the mental ways to picture a being composed of shadow.
              Last edited by Pale_Crusader; 02-09-2017, 05:31 PM.


              “Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.” ~ Aristophanes
              "Virescit Vulnere Virtus" ~ Stewart Clan Motto

              Comment


              • #8
                I think there are a few options to go with appearance and the character would still be scary. I won't get hung up on appearance. I think the character has to remain some sort of 3d being in order to do the assail spirits thing. I don't understand how a shadow cast on an object could assail anything except the object, maybe. Actually, it is a bit hard for me to wrap my head around that, but as an appearance I don't see a problem.

                Second post has the full text of the power and the link goes to all the relevant info. I don't see anything that suggests to me that slipping under doors is necessarily an option. However for personal use, I could see justifying it by saying that shadows lacking substance should be able to manage as long as the listed limitation of moving along solid objects is not broken. I wouldn't allow the character to move through anything that they couldn't if they were turned into a paper cut out, plumbing and grates for example. I wouldn't allow shrinking to hide under objects that are too small to allow the "paper cut-out" to fit also. It is less a logical decision than balance.

                Protean has the ability to turn into smoke as it's final power, so I wouldn't minimize a core discipline by allowing a bloodline devotion requiring less investment to do so much of the same thing. Iteru and Tyet could be used to move through anything that isn't airtight and opaque. Rather than make Ba do everything, spread it around. Iteru can overcome the limitation of moving over solid objects, only connected shadows required.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Consider this scenario. You are a Khaibit shadow monster hunting some vampire. For a rather low experience costs you can have Tyet, Ba, Iteru, Pseshkf, 8 experience plus prerequisites of Obfuscate 2, Celerity 2, and Vigor 2.

                  You use Ba and now your prey can't touch you without fire or some ephemeral-basher. You are limited in your movement however. The prey goes into a locked building with a security system and large windows made with safety glass. You walk through the window. The prey goes into a dark hallway locking the door behind. You turn out the lights and use Iteru to appear on the other side of the door. The prey exits the hall into a brightly lit stairway and barricades the door. You use Tyet to spread shadow under the door and across the barricade so you can use Iteru to continue your chase. The prey goes outside and swims across a river realizing that you will have to drop Ba to cross. Or you use Tyet to spread shadows across the river and use Iteru again. The prey runs into a cage and lights it on fire because surely you can't get to them without dropping Ba. You find a knife on the ground that the prey dropped and use Pseshkf on it then Tyet to surround the cage. You cut into the cage with the knife then kill your prey doing at least 1 lethal for every successful attack on a vampire which still receives the bashing damage from the knife as usual also. You never drop Ba or enter the cage on fire. Your prey dies without ever a chance to strike you back. You never raised an alarm. Any surveillance will see nothing but a shadowy figure. You are a marvelous monster.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Yup you've got a point here in terms of game balance (Ba vs Protean 5), but the game isn't always balanced for instance Udjat is a free for Khabits. Other vampires or supernatural beings would need to spend more or less 3PD to get something similar (example: werewolf Tell). I agree that if BA would be too good it would weaken protean, since its requires less cost.
                    On other hand the cost to aquire whole Obtenebrations is 26PD or 17PD if 3 prerequisites were starting disciplines (Ancilla level+)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Udjat isn't free. It comes with the cost of the bloodline bane.

                      I think the cost of getting everything for Obtenebration is equivalent to someone that would be working with Protean 5. I wouldn't want someone spending 8 for Ba instead of 15 for Primeval Miasma (20 for a Mekhet). A cost of 26 for all the powers including the prerequisite disciplines is still arguably better. My feeling is it would be better to limit the ability for Ba with regards to increase movement abilities since it is an extension of Obfuscate. Obfuscate and somehow moving under a door doesn't go together to me.

                      I guess it comes down to how often creeping under doors might occur as to whether it is appropriate. I gave a justification to allow, that is all I can do. I mean, technically, the gap under a door does not stop light so you can interpret "not constrained by anything that wouldn't stop light" that way. You can try asking David Hill since he wrote the thing, but I expect he would tell you pick what works for you. I say the same.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thanks for the help. I'll ask David what he thinks. I've PMed MachineIV.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I was asked:

                          1. Is a Khabit using BA paper-thin more or less 2d ordinary shadow or 3d human-size ephemera being of shadow?
                          2. Can it squeeze under doors and tiny spaces like shadow could? Since it wouldn't stop the light?
                          3. Can it pass through transparent objects glass etc.
                          4. Question about Iteru/Tyet. Would you allow to teleport behind the closed door? (Create a shadow under the tiny gap and teleport.)

                          Here's my spitball responses:

                          1) Essentially 2d, insomuch as there's no depth. However, it doesn't have to be flat, since shadow conforms to surfaces.
                          2) Yes.
                          3) No.
                          4) Yes.

                          As far as doors go, there needs to be a discernible seam. If there's a rubber seal or other form-adapting seal on the door, that'd block it.


                          David A Hill Jr
                          Freelance Writer
                          Independent Game Designer

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Number 3 surprised me, when I read the description I believed being able to travel anywhere you could cast your shadow was the intent.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Live Bait View Post
                              Number 3 surprised me, when I read the description I believed being able to travel anywhere you could cast your shadow was the intent.
                              You mean you expected the description to actually convey the intent. Shame on you.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X