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Cruac: Pools of Forbidden Truths - What is considered a topic?

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  • Cruac: Pools of Forbidden Truths - What is considered a topic?

    The Secrets of the Covenant provides us with a new Cruac ritual called Pools of Forbidden Truths. It allows the caster to "choose a topic to divine." It doesn't call for any contested rolls, and doesn't define topic further. Can this ritual be performed on a subject? For example, the Prince of the City. If it can be performed on a subject, is it contested? Would the subject feel sorcery being performed on them?

    It seems much stronger than other Divination rituals if it is uncontested and unfelt, but can provide the ritualist with unlimited information (information not limited by anything more than asking a one sentence question, not unlimited amounts of information). The condition provided is pretty harsh, admittedly.

  • #2
    Another example of vague powers giving unlimited power™.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Ifisa View Post
      The Secrets of the Covenant provides us with a new Cruac ritual called Pools of Forbidden Truths. It allows the caster to "choose a topic to divine." It doesn't call for any contested rolls, and doesn't define topic further. Can this ritual be performed on a subject? For example, the Prince of the City.
      Sure.

      If it can be performed on a subject, is it contested? Would the subject feel sorcery being performed on them?
      There's no mention of it being contested, so no. Most people wouldn't feel sorcery being performed on them. If somehow they have a 'Someone is talking about me' alarm then sure, otherwise no. You're not casting it 'on' them, you're using the pool as divination.

      It seems much stronger than other Divination rituals if it is uncontested and unfelt, but can provide the ritualist with unlimited information (information not limited by anything more than asking a one sentence question, not unlimited amounts of information). The condition provided is pretty harsh, admittedly.


      That's the point.
      Last edited by nofather; 02-16-2017, 05:46 PM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by nofather View Post


        There's no mention of it being contested, so no. Most people wouldn't feel sorcery being performed on them. If somehow they have a 'Someone is talking about me' alarm then sure, otherwise no. You're not casting it 'on' them, you're using the pool as divination.

        Wat?

        Vtr Pg 152 - "Via a sensation much like blood sympathy, vampires are always aware when someone uses a blood sorcery ritual on them — their Beasts react to the ritualist’s sorcerous presence
        from the moment the sacrifice is made until the ritual fails or succeeds. This applies even to vampires in daysleep or torpor, although they can’t do anything about it until they wake. Note that vampires don’t know what a ritual is doing, just that one is taking place."


        Now I can understand the argument that since it isn't directly targeting the person in question it might not invoke this, but Vamires are always aware sorcery is being cast on them. I houserule this out to other supernaturals feel something as well, although they have no clue what this means.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Heroofthemists View Post
          Now I can understand the argument that since it isn't directly targeting the person in question it might not invoke this, but Vamires are always aware sorcery is being cast on them. I houserule this out to other supernaturals feel something as well, although they have no clue what this means.
          You're right, I didn't know about that rule. But I still believe this would be an exception as you are not performing the sorcery on them. It's asking a third party, like Wikipedia, except with insanity.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by nofather View Post

            You're right, I didn't know about that rule. But I still believe this would be an exception as you are not performing the sorcery on them. It's asking a third party, like Wikipedia, except with insanity.
            If an individual is the topic, that individual is most certainly is having sorcery performed on them. They are the subject of a scrying attempt. There's no stipulation on the extrasensory sensation that someone feels when someone is using a blood sorcery ritual on them that the ritual must be of a malign variety to qualify for the spidersense to be set off.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by tsusasi View Post
              If an individual is the topic, that individual is most certainly is having sorcery performed on them.
              No they aren't. The sorcerer is asking a third party about the subject, the pool of Forbidden Truths. This does not involve any magic directed at said subject.

              There's no stipulation on the extrasensory sensation that someone feels when someone is using a blood sorcery ritual on them that the ritual must be of a malign variety to qualify for the spidersense to be set off.
              I didn't say it had to be dangerous. It's just not targeting them any more than asking their sire about them is targeting them.

              It's the Pool of Forbidden Truths. Maybe it's the Astral, maybe it's the Inferno, maybe it's some weird realm of blood that knows everything, but the sorcery isn't being used on whoever you're asking it about, it's being used on a container.

              Mechanically this would be the reason for the trade-off. In exchange for not dealing with contesting, you have a nasty Condition to deal with.

              If a sorcerous rite has contesting or resisting, it's noted in the description, usually right below the Target Successes number.
              Last edited by nofather; 02-16-2017, 10:53 PM.

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              • #8
                Ehhh.... why should there be resistance? You're not spying on someone directly, you're asking cthonic powers for answers. Do Mehket's Prophetic Dreams merit require resistances? No. Does Auspex 1 through 3 have any resistance, despite being divinatory powers? No.

                Anything can be considered a topic here. Where the limits of the power come into play is that you get a limited number of questions. That requires you to actually have enough knowlege to ask the right questions.

                Vampire, remember, is a social game. This isn't about painstakingly gathering clues, and having trials. Its about having to deal with social consequences of making acusations of the powerful, its about social chases to convince the city, its about swaying public opinion (or, at least, the opinion of the elder in charge). Its about convincing those in power that you're not mistaken or misinterpretting the ritual, its about convincing people to listen to your ritual instead of the other ritualist who has a different answer, and ignoring the Lance muttering in the back about witchcraft informing the city's direction and corrupting us all.

                Should blood sympathy senses trip on the ritual? That's going to be entirely an ST call. Is this like Mage, where you're directly pulling information from a target in question, or is it like Werewolf where you're asking something akin to local spirits to give up the gossip? There is a lot of different ways you can run this, depending on how one interprets Cruac to work. We don't know how the Beast is doing the divination, so we can't definitively say one way or another. Given that we're talking about seeing "truths beyond reality" it makes me think we're tapping into some third party than pulling the information directly from a target, I lean towards the "not tripping blood sympathy" side.

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                • #9
                  What condition is imposed on you if you don't mind sharing here?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Malus View Post
                    What condition is imposed on you if you don't mind sharing here?
                    It's Primeval Truths, I think.


                    Your character has gazed into the abyss, and
                    it gazed back into her. She suffers an uncanny
                    angst and melancholy, having seen truths her
                    Earthly self could not hope to comprehend. She
                    cannot regain Willpower, and must spend an
                    additional Vitae to rise each night.

                    Resolution: Face the darkness. Risk Humanity
                    Detachment, or otherwise take a significant action
                    where your character briefly faces the void.

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