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[Houserules] Smaller Vitae Pools + Cheaper Healing

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  • [Houserules] Smaller Vitae Pools + Cheaper Healing

    I'm not a big fan of large resource pools - I kinda prefer a regime where everyone's closer to hungry all the time, So...

    Vitae Pools are equal to Stamina + Blood Potency.

    This has a few side effects:
    1) Vitae pools are going to cap out at 25 (Stamina 10 + Blood Potency 10 + Resilience 5). For non-Elders, the cap is 15 Vitae, and is probably going to be closer to 3-7.
    2) It's possible to have Ghouls with larger Vitae pools than a young Vampire - however, Vampire!You is always going to have more Vitae than Ghoul!You.
    3) Younger Vampires are going to be running into the "my stomach is grumbly" penalties for Frenzy a lot more often.
    4) 5 Vitae for one Aggravated HL is going to clean out most non-Elders.

    As a result of 4 (and my own problems with the Cleansing not healing you):

    The Cleansing automatically clears all levels of Bashing damage. While you slumber, you must spend Vitae to heal your wounds - 1 Vitae heals 2 levels of Lethal damage or 1 level of Aggravated damage.

    Yeah, this lets them heal Aggravated damage ridiculously fast. Given the reduced resource pool they have to spend from... I'm fine with this.


    I have decided, after some thought, that I don't really feel happy on these forums. I might decide to come back to post. Who knows - but right now, I'm gone.

    So good bye, good luck, and have a nice day.

  • #2
    This would lead to most players buying up Stamina early, a low Stamina build would be unworkable and a Stamina 1 vampire would have 2 Vitae with a full tank. Maybe Stamina+Size+Blood Potency would be better.
    Anything that every player buys up is concerning from a game design point of view unless that was the intended goal.
    Last edited by Live Bait; 02-16-2017, 07:43 PM.

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    • #3
      Most newly embraced vampires would have a pool of 3 Vitae. That seems a bit extreme. I second the suggestion of adding Size to the pool unless you want such extreme restrictions. Just remember that if a vampire don't have enough blood to wake up they go into torpor so you'd get situations where a vampire goes to sleep with full pool and still not be able to wake up.
      One thing I think you should restrict, however, is that Resilience adds to the Vitae pool. Even in a chronicle where it's common for vampires to learn out of clan Disciplines it still gives Gangrels and Ventrues an unfair advantage since they get a 25% discount on the absolutely most important Discipline in the game.


      Bloodline: The Stygians

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      • #4
        Tessie beat me to the Resilience concern, but another thought occurred:

        Given that Vitae is more a mystical than truly physical force (after all, you don't have to drink until someone's literally empty and your stomach is sloshing to fill your blood pool), perhaps Blood Potency + Resolve might be another approach to determining one's pool in these new rules. It dispenses with the idea of body size or physical toughness, and instead focuses more on the idea of it being a psychospiritual concept.

        That said, I like your approach to a smaller pool in general, along with how the Cleansing can work with said smaller pool; The 5 vitae per Agg while awake still makes sense as you're forcing yourself to regenerate faster on the fly, while the Cleansing is more of a "Sleep it off" kind of effect.

        Another question: Did you also take into account possibly changing the costs of higher level disciplines (such as Protean 3 requiring 3 vitae normally, or expending lots of Vitae to add dice to a Cruac ritual), or does your smaller blood pool idea intend to limit the use of vitae-fueled disciplines to being nuke-type abilities? (Overall, reducing any of the abilities a vampire has access to does in turn make them a less dangerous monster compared to a human and in effect can alter the balance of a story in general, so, just a thought.)


        "There is the world of light, and the world of darkness. And some in the light prefer the darkness." — Loren Eiseley, The Night Country

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        • #5
          Also wondering what would happen with Frenzy checks for being hungry? you use 1 and your already on 66% tank. you use 2 and you're practically starved... Lots of hungry vamps snapping out there.

          Zsander brought up a good point. the higher cost disciplines would be pretty rare and buying anything more than 1 dot in the physicals would be sort of pointless because you couldn't use them more than once in combat.

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          • #6
            Why wouldn't you increase the physical Disciplines? The cost does not increase, but the potency of their effects does.
            Edit: I mean Vigor 5 is literally 5 times as good as Vigor 1 without any extra cost associated. It seems way batter than Protean that costs an extreme amount of Vitae in comparison.
            Last edited by Tessie; 02-16-2017, 08:41 PM.


            Bloodline: The Stygians

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Tessie View Post
              Most newly embraced vampires would have a pool of 3 Vitae. That seems a bit extreme. I second the suggestion of adding Size to the pool unless you want such extreme restrictions. Just remember that if a vampire don't have enough blood to wake up they go into torpor so you'd get situations where a vampire goes to sleep with full pool and still not be able to wake up.
              One thing I think you should restrict, however, is that Resilience adds to the Vitae pool. Even in a chronicle where it's common for vampires to learn out of clan Disciplines it still gives Gangrels and Ventrues an unfair advantage since they get a 25% discount on the absolutely most important Discipline in the game.
              That is offset by the fact that the rest of their in clan discipline repertoires also require more vitae expenditure than everyone else's. I think the spending multiple vitae per turn at higher blood potency should probably be retooled along the lines of allowing higher BP characters to activate more powers on a single point of vitae if it's in the same turn.

              Last edited by tsusasi; 02-16-2017, 09:43 PM.

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              • #8
                Animalism and Protean does cost a lot of Vitae, but Dominate does not. But even for Gangrels I'd say the expanded Vitae pool more than compensates for the large costs of most Animalism and Protean dots.


                Bloodline: The Stygians

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                  Animalism and Protean does cost a lot of Vitae, but Dominate does not. But even for Gangrels I'd say the expanded Vitae pool more than compensates for the large costs of most Animalism and Protean dots.
                  Dominate uses more vitae overall than Majesty or Auspex. A minimum of one Vitae has to be used for every three sentences after level 2. Personally I disagree that their slightly larger vitae pool (which IS available to everyone BTW) for a slightly cheaper xp cost does not compensate for the fact that the other clans' powers are more versatile, less situational, and cheaper to use vitae wise.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                    Why wouldn't you increase the physical Disciplines? The cost does not increase, but the potency of their effects does.
                    Edit: I mean Vigor 5 is literally 5 times as good as Vigor 1 without any extra cost associated. It seems way batter than Protean that costs an extreme amount of Vitae in comparison.
                    Yes vigor 5 gives you 5 strength and would give you 5 damage on a hit for 1 vitae, but you would be able to use it once maybe twice in combat because your vitae pool is 3ish.
                    Celerity interrupts would be capped out, not by the dots, but by the fact you only have 3ish vitae.

                    Resilience would become a mandatory discipline, because if you have it Stam + BP every kindred would need it just so they stop frenzying every time they wake up.

                    I think changing the vitae pool would be breaking a lot more things than it fixes.

                    What is the goal of changing it, if I might ask? If you want vampires to be more "hungry" make them have to do hunger checks at 70% of their pool. So, for a neonate it would be -2 at 7 and -4 at 5 vitae instead of 4 and 2....you could even impose steeper negatives that way too -6 at 3 and so on.

                    Wouldn't that be an easier fix to just change what "hungry" is than change the whole pool, then exp costs, and discipline costs, and have to worry about balancing clans?
                    Last edited by Vitalis; 02-17-2017, 10:46 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Actually, I think Theban Sorcery would be more mandatory than Resilience, due to Vitae Reliquary.

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                      • #12
                        Cruac will need to be buffed or fuelled by something other than Vitae.

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                        • #13
                          Alright, back in the saddle (I had to find my password, don'tcha know).

                          Maybe I've been misrepresenting myself - I just really don't like large pools of points. It doesn't matter if it's in-play or in-chargen, they leave me a bit cold.

                          However, I've been reading through and thinking, and I've settled on a "better" pools size:
                          Resolve + Blood/Shadow Potency + (11 - Humanity). Treat Ghouls as if they've got Humanity 11 and Strix as if they've got Humanity 0.
                          In other words:

                          Ghouls: 1 to 5 Vitae, an average of 2.
                          Starting Kindred: 6 to 12 Vitae, an average of 7.
                          Kindred Range: 3 (BP 1, Humanity 10, Resolve 1) to 31 (BP 10, Humanity 0, Resolve 10)
                          Strix: 12 (SP 1 and Resistance 1) to 31 (SP 10 and Resistance 10)

                          Cruac dots assure that your Vitae pool will be larger, Also, the Sacrifice for a Cruac Rite can be made as a group - if you want to cast Denying Hades, you get your apprentices to donate a little blood (or just accept that bringing the dead to life is going to leave you feeling a bit peckish).


                          I have decided, after some thought, that I don't really feel happy on these forums. I might decide to come back to post. Who knows - but right now, I'm gone.

                          So good bye, good luck, and have a nice day.

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                          • #14
                            How do you deal with 'overflow'?

                            If I'm trying to commit diablerie or just drink attack someone to death because I'm frenzying, do I stop because I can't fill up anymore?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by amechra View Post
                              Alright, back in the saddle (I had to find my password, don'tcha know).

                              Maybe I've been misrepresenting myself - I just really don't like large pools of points. It doesn't matter if it's in-play or in-chargen, they leave me a bit cold.

                              However, I've been reading through and thinking, and I've settled on a "better" pools size:
                              Resolve + Blood/Shadow Potency + (11 - Humanity). Treat Ghouls as if they've got Humanity 11 and Strix as if they've got Humanity 0.
                              In other words:

                              Ghouls: 1 to 5 Vitae, an average of 2.
                              Starting Kindred: 6 to 12 Vitae, an average of 7.
                              Kindred Range: 3 (BP 1, Humanity 10, Resolve 1) to 31 (BP 10, Humanity 0, Resolve 10)
                              Strix: 12 (SP 1 and Resistance 1) to 31 (SP 10 and Resistance 10)

                              Cruac dots assure that your Vitae pool will be larger, Also, the Sacrifice for a Cruac Rite can be made as a group - if you want to cast Denying Hades, you get your apprentices to donate a little blood (or just accept that bringing the dead to life is going to leave you feeling a bit peckish).

                              I think this way would assure that you do not much variety in your vampires. They will all have high resolve and very low humanity. You will literally have a bunch of monsters who don't care much about anything at all running around.

                              And the ones that do care or tried to maintain their humanity will just fall fast any way because they will have a lot of accidental deaths and masquerade breaches because they will need to feed EVERYDAY and when they do feed ( if you keep the -2 / -4 hunger frenzy checks for having low vitae ) chances are they will just frenzy anyway.


                              I know this might be just a personal thing here, but to take from DND 3.5 and 5th edition. ( at least my small group ) enjoys 3.5 a whole lot more because of the personal variety and uniqueness that each character can have. in 5th edition you become so very limited that it makes it hard to create something unique. I feel with limiting vitae based on Resolve and Humanity it will just make all the vampires take the same route to maximize their pools for their own safety. Either to not have to feed every night and risk the frenzy they will build high resolve and accept the humanity loss, which will make them fall faster. Or they will fall faster and gain higher resolve and BP for personal safety. The prince likely wont like all the vampires accidentally frenzying and eating/murdering people all willynilly.

                              Either way. it will be extremely limiting because if you have to spend all that exp 4 or 5 just to get to a sustainable level of safety, you wont be able to take anything else... no merits, no skills, no other disciplines.


                              Allll that said, If it works for you and your group do it and enjoy it.

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