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[Thought Experiment] Alternate Discipline Lists

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  • [Thought Experiment] Alternate Discipline Lists

    I'm not a massive fan of Animalism, and I don't really like the implementation of Protean. So a though hit me earlier - what if I just replaced them? How would that change the Clans that get it "in clan"?

    For example, let's say that I replace Protean with Bloodworking for my game - replacing shape-shifting with blood control would definitely change how the Gangrel do business. It still fits them (their hunting tactics are still going to be savage and will involve a lot of blood spraying around), but it still changes things.

    But what if I replaced Animalism with Subvolo? The Gangrel would be pretty different, since they don't really have their whole "I sic a pack of wolves on you" schtick anymore, but it can slip into the Ventrue's bag of tricks without too much trouble.

    =---=

    Basically, my challenge is:

    1. Pick a Discipline.
    2. Replace it with another Discipline - it doesn't have to be a real one. It's enough to say something like "Majesty is replaced by a Discipline that gives you eye-lasers".
    3. Describe how that changes the Clans that now get the swapped-in Discipline. If it's a relatively common Discipline, you might as well describe how replacing, say, Celerity changes things.
    4. Alternatively, swap the places of two Disciplines. Like, I dunno, Dominate is a common discipline while Obfuscate is almost unique to the Ventrue.


    I have decided, after some thought, that I don't really feel happy on these forums. I might decide to come back to post. Who knows - but right now, I'm gone.

    So good bye, good luck, and have a nice day.

  • #2
    Well so far you've given the Gangrel two unique disciplines where every other clan gets one, not that I'm a huge fan of the whole unique discipline thing anyway because it empathise that the clans were designed by game designers who made a decision rather than evolved in some manner.
    I'm going to put forward replacing Obfuscate with a Blood Alchemy discipline, it would let vampires enhance the things they can do with their blood and allow it to last longer. This forces Nos to spend more time away from people but gives them a use for prep time, for Meket it would make it harder for them to gather information but give them an incentive to use minons.

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    • #3
      Actually, whatever replaces Animalism would be still be in the "general Discipline pool" - both Ventrue and Gangrel would get it, and anyone could learn it from them.

      So (to use my example) Subvolo would only be a unique Discipline insofar as Animalism is currently a "unique" Discipline.


      I have decided, after some thought, that I don't really feel happy on these forums. I might decide to come back to post. Who knows - but right now, I'm gone.

      So good bye, good luck, and have a nice day.

      Comment


      • #4
        For me, the two main things that define a "Clan" are its Curse, and its proprietary Discipline. So, for example, taking a Gangrel, and replacing Protean with something else (or at least, something other than another physically unusual discipline such as Bloodworking) would in a way make it . . . not-Gangrel any more.

        That said, replacing at least the secondary disciplines does indeed change the flavor of a clan. Taking the aforementioned Gangrel as an example and replacing Resilience and Animalism with, say, Obfuscate and Vigor, would turn it from an enduring territorial monster into, perhaps, Vampire-As-Ambush-Predator.

        Of course, that's not entirely the case with every clan, if you stick with just the Curse being the truly defining aspect of what makes a clan what it is. For example, take a Mekhet. Replace Auspex with, let's say, a form of Necromancy that lets you summon spirits to do your bidding, and temporarily puppet around dead bodies (including, perhaps, torpid kindred shells). You're still the Vampire-as-Strange-Secret-Keeper, but instead of being the weird know-it-all in the corner, your Curse is related to the fact that your connection to spirits, the dead, and the underworld / shadow / umbra / whatever taints you in strange ways.


        "There is the world of light, and the world of darkness. And some in the light prefer the darkness." — Loren Eiseley, The Night Country

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        • #5
          Replacing Protean with the Tenure Discipline from the 1st Ed Invictus sourcebook might emphasise a predator who knows and can use their territory.

          Comment


          • #6
            Alternate Idea:
            Remove common Disciplines all together by removing one of the three In Clans that would cause in Clans to overlap, and see how much more distinct the Clans become. Maybe add back non-standard/homebrewed Disciplines as the new common Disciplines.

            Daeva Disciplines: Celerity, Majesty (Optionally adding Gustus and Despond, to be new "common" Disciplines)
            How scary would it be that the clan that has the greatest ability to dulcify others also has the greatest ability to act before they react?
            Graceful, Beautiful, Ravenous, Sad

            Gangrel Disciplines: Protean, Resilience (Optionally adding Gustus and Rift, to be new "common" Disciplines)
            How scary would it be that the clan that has the greatest ability to survive in the untamed area also has the greatest ability to shrug off injuries?
            Shapeshifting, Tough, Ravenous, Territorial

            Mekhet Disciplines: Auspex, Obfuscate (Optionally adding Sunnikuse and Constance, to be new "common" Disciplines)
            How scary would it be that the clan that has the greatest ability to uncover the secrets of other also has the greatest ability to hide its secrets?
            Insightful, Hidden, Cursing, Steadfast

            Nosferatu Disciplines: Nightmare, Vigor (Optionally adding Sunnikuse and Despond, to be new "common" Disciplines)
            How scary would it be that the clan that has the greatest ability to inflict madness and terror also has the greatest ability to hit or restrain with supernatural force?
            Frightening, Strong, Cursing, Sad

            Ventrue Disciplines: Animalism, Dominate (Optionally adding Rift and Constance, to be new "common" Disciplines)
            How scary would it be that the clan that has the greatest ability to command man also has the greatest ability to command beasts?
            Masterful, Controlling, Territorial, Steadfast

            I think this distribution of Discipline casts new flickering miasma-tinted lights over the Clans, causing them to throw strange new shadows. That was a fun mental exercise.
            Last edited by Pale_Crusader; 03-08-2017, 04:00 PM.


            “Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.” ~ Aristophanes
            "Virescit Vulnere Virtus" ~ Stewart Clan Motto

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            • #7
              I never thought about that, but it does look quite great. The only tinkering I usually do is switch the physicals of Gangrel and Mekhet around. Gangrel became fast predators and Resilience makes Mekhet more corpse-like. This way there are no Clans with similar spreads.


              I'm So Meta Even This Acronym

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Pale_Crusader View Post
                Alternate Idea:I think this distribution of Discipline casts new flickering miasma-tinted lights over the Clans, causing them to throw strange new shadows. That was a fun mental exercise.
                That you use my old homebrew makes me both indescribably happy and indescribably ashamed. :V


                Darkframe - Crossover setting that puts Chronicles of Darkness in the far future that is Warframe.

                "The weeping in the world will not decrease if we do not weep together."

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by ManusDomine View Post
                  ...and indescribably ashamed.
                  Could you be a little more descriptive about the cause of your shame?
                  I ask without hint of irony in my voice -most likely because this is written and not spoken-
                  Last edited by Pale_Crusader; 03-08-2017, 04:05 PM.


                  “Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.” ~ Aristophanes
                  "Virescit Vulnere Virtus" ~ Stewart Clan Motto

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Pale_Crusader View Post

                    Could you be a little more descriptive about the cause of your shame?
                    I ask without hint of irony in my voice -most likely because this is written and not spoken-
                    Rift is a Discipline that lacks cleanup - it has plenty of concept and idea behind it, but it's clunky, overthought and absolutely horrendous for quick play; my Enfurecerse Discipline is far better written, in that it's more sure of what it wants to do, as well as better written.


                    Darkframe - Crossover setting that puts Chronicles of Darkness in the far future that is Warframe.

                    "The weeping in the world will not decrease if we do not weep together."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ManusDomine View Post

                      Rift is a Discipline that lacks cleanup - it has plenty of concept and idea behind it, but it's clunky, overthought and absolutely horrendous for quick play; my Enfurecerse Discipline is far better written, in that it's more sure of what it wants to do, as well as better written.
                      Would it be okay to rewrite it like this?

                      Originally posted by rewrite of Rift
                      Atrium
                      The Beast is a gaping maw, teeth gnashing and devouring- A forever, hungry monstrosity with an insatiable appetite for the Humanity of it’s own Kindred. Its eyes are burning, yellow fires in a smoky field of darkness, wings of inky, black feathers shroud the light from ever entering the vampire’s soul. Yet there is more to the beast, for all dragons have a hoard, a lair, a devil-domain, the vampire’s personal hell - His Atrium. And this Discipline grants the vampire the key to the lock. Learning Atrium is a Breaking Point at Humanity 2 as the vampire has to rip out his Monstrous nature and shape it into his own domain.

                      Window into Hell - O
                      Cost: 0 or 1 Vitae
                      Dice Pool: None
                      Duration: Scene
                      Effect: The vampire visualizes his Atrium, and it becomes a real metaphysical place within him. First he must decide upon its appearance and effects. This realm is not yet able to be physically entered without other powers, but it exists and allows the vampire to regain Willpower during daysleep via mentally projecting into his Atrium in a manner similar to mortals dreaming. The process of defining the Atrium begins upon acquiring this level of the Discipline. If a Vampire with this Discipline enters Torpor they automatically spend a Vitae when they have it, and then becomes an awake mental projection within their Atrium. During daysleep and when a vampire has spent the Vitae to allow being mentally active within the Atrium during Torpor, the vampire's body counts as having the Open Condition for those wishing to create a Gate Condition to the resulting Atrium.

                      Fiendish Vitae - OO
                      Cost: 0
                      Dice Pool: No Roll
                      Duration: Permanent

                      Each Vitae is a bit of stolen life, and at this level of Atrium those bits of stolen life become self-aware entities within the Atrium. Each Vitae in the vampire's system becomes a rank 1 Fiend within the Atrium. The fiend's appearance is a grotesque caricature of its source. The Fiend and Vitae are one and the same, should the vampire lose Vitae the Fiend population of his Atrium drops by a like amount, and should Fiends leave his Atrium or are drained of their single Vitae, the vampire loses that Vitae as well. Supernatural powers that would steal or manipulate Vitae within a vampire with this power now invokes a Clash of Wills against the vampire. Those same powers used against a fiend outside of its Atrium invoke a Clash of Wills against the Fiend.


                      Gateway to Hell - OOO
                      Cost: 1 Vitae or 1 Vitae and 1 Willpower point
                      Dice Pool: Presence + Intimidation + Atrium
                      Action: Instant
                      Duration: Scene

                      Having developed a rich internal metaphysical landscape and populated it with horrible denizens, the vampire gains insight how to make a physical passage into the Atrium of others, and allow those within his Atrium, fiends or otherwise, egress.

                      Roll Results:
                      Dramatic Failure: The Fiends within his Atrium revolts, and he gains the Tainted Condition.
                      Failure: Nothing happens.
                      Success: The vampire applies the Gate Condition to an Open Condition keyed to an Atrium. The gateway appears as a shadowing area around the vampire's corpse. A vampire who succeeds at the roll and spend the prerequisite Vitae and an additional Willpower may do so to their own Atrium that they mentally project into during daysleep or Torpor. The Gate Condition and shadows completely obscures the vampire's corpse, and all non-supernaturally aided attempt to physically reach the vampire instead enter the Atrium. With supernatural powers to reach the corpse, a Clash of Wills is invoked.
                      Exceptional Success: As above but if the vampire enters the Atrium they gain the Tormented condition upon exiting.

                      Fiendish Will - OOOO
                      Cost: +1 Willpower Point
                      Effect: During Daysleep or Torpor which has activated Window to Hell and Gateway to Hell which has paid the additional Willpower to use on their own corpse, the mental projection of the vampire may apply the Possessed Condition to one its own Fiends within his Atrium. It may then use that Fiend to leave his Atrium.

                      Hell on Earth - OOOOO
                      Cost: 3-9 Vitae
                      Requirements: The vampire must spread Vitae around the area he wishes to claim, marking the gateways, exits, and landmarks with arcane sigils, he spends one Vitae per sigil. 3 is enough to claim an apartment or small house, 6 is enough to take control of a mansion or similar large building, 9 is enough to claim a castle. After doing so the vampire then enters Torpor inside the area.
                      Dice Pool: None
                      Action: Instant
                      Duration: Until the sigils are destroyed, or the vampire is awoken from torpor.
                      Once he has used Hell on Earth, the vampire’s Atrium slowly begins to become the physical reality within the area, apply the Atrium’s Environmental Tilts to the area, the area count as Open for the Atrium. The features of his own Atrium slowly replace those of the normal world, and the worst part of it all, nobody inside realize that their world has been supplanted. Everyone within the Atrium take the Delusional Condition and believe that their world has always been like this unless their Blood Potency is higher than the vampire’s. A number of locations within the area gain the Gate Condition in regards to the vampire’s Atrium, at least 6 – the vampire’s Atrium dots. While this power is active the vampire no longer has a corpse which can be assailed. If the Sigils are destroyed or the vampire rises from Torpor the body reappears in the general area.


                      New Conditions:

                      Tormented
                      Your character has literally seen Hell and come out better, or well- Not necessarily the Judeo-Christian hell, it could be anything: Yomi Wan, The Pits of Harmony, Sheol, the vampire has been there and punched it so hard that it’s still crying. He does not need to spend Willpower to Ride The Wave and he enjoys a +2 bonus to resist Frenzy for as long as this Condition persists.
                      Possible Sources: The Atrium Discipline.
                      Resolution: Using Atrium, failing to Ride The Wave
                      Beat: N/A

                      Fiends
                      Fiends are Ephemeral Beings which are the metaphysical embodiment of a vampire's Vitae points. Instead of Essence, each fiend has a single Vitae. Fiends experience all the Banes of the Vampire they come from, and have a Ban that it must Discorporate if its single Vitae is taken. Fiends are visible in Twilight to beings with Vitae, including vampires, ghouls, Stryx, and other fiends.

                      They have the following stats:

                      Rank 1
                      Power: 2
                      Finesse: 2
                      Resistance: 2
                      Size: 4-7 (based on source of Vitae)
                      Corpus: 6-9 (based on source of Vitae)
                      Vitae Pool: 1
                      Numina: Drain (Vitae is transferred to vampire to create more Fiends), Seek (Their own Atrium)
                      Manifestations: Twilight Form, Discorporate

                      Creating an Atrium
                      Decide upon its appearance. It must be “monstrous” in some way, there has to be something wrong with the place. Per default, the landscape of the Atrium is Size 100, and takes whatever shape that its Lord desires it to take, it could be a huge forest of twisting brambles with great trees that block out the sun, the closer one comes to the edges, the closer and more intertwined the trees until they are a physical barrier.

                      Apply a suitable Environmental Tilt severity per dot of Atrium, using these existing Environmental Tilts as guides: Blizzard, Earthquake, Extreme Cold, Extreme Heat, Flooded, Heavy Rain, Heavy Winds, Ice, Zombies!

                      The Environmental Tilts that define the Atrium apply to all those within except the Discipline user and those who successfully use a power via a Clash of Wills to resist.

                      Mortals witnessing an Atrium is a Breaking Point at Integrity equal 6 -character’s Atrium. A vampire within their own Atrium is a mere mental projection, as a Twilight Projection, but is visible and capable of being heard by those within the Atrium.

                      Devotions:
                      Slip out of Hell
                      Auspex 5 Atrium 1
                      The vampire unshackles his active mind from his Atrium projecting his senses throughout the world. His astral form exists in a twilight state, with no real physical or spiritual substance to it, but still in the world and noticeable only by other vampires with Auspex. The vampire can move at incredible speeds, traveling to any point within the moon’s orbit — an area that some Kindred call the “lunar sphere.”
                      Cost: 2 Vitae
                      Dice Pool: Intelligence + Occult + Auspex
                      Action: Instant
                      Roll Results
                      Dramatic Failure: The character’s senses depart from his Atrium, but something sends his consciousness far away and .
                      Failure: The vampire cannot slip the bounds of his dead flesh.
                      Success: The vampire’s senses part from his body, and can travel the world. Multiply the vampire’s Speed by his (Auspex + Blood Potency). The vampire is not bound by gravity, and can travel through physical obstacles and even into the ground.
                      He cannot interact with the physical world in any way when a mere mental projection. He can see and hear as well as he can normally, but cannot use Disciplines. The vampire’s body lies in daysleep or torpor, and he is unaware of anything that happens to it. If someone kills his body his mind remains projected. At anytime the vampire may spend a point of Vitae to reform within his Atrium. He must still spend a point of Vitae at the beginning of each night. Some vampires speak of strange magic that can prevent a vampire from returning to his body, or of his body walking around unbidden, with yellow eyes the only sign that something might be wrong.
                      Exceptional Success: As above but the vampire also gain the Tormented condition.
                      Last edited by Pale_Crusader; 03-10-2017, 04:54 PM.


                      “Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.” ~ Aristophanes
                      "Virescit Vulnere Virtus" ~ Stewart Clan Motto

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Not bad! I have a rewrite lying somewhere which I just have to clean up a little and make slightly less obviously Bloodborne-esque, which I'll post in the V:tR homebrew thread when I'm not occupied with an incoming court session!


                        Darkframe - Crossover setting that puts Chronicles of Darkness in the far future that is Warframe.

                        "The weeping in the world will not decrease if we do not weep together."

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