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Learning New Disciplines - Warning or Requirement?

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  • Learning New Disciplines - Warning or Requirement?

    When it says to drink a point of vitae from a vampire who knows, I think it's more of a warning "-- and all the of the consequences" as opposed to a "you must drink this with consequences".
    Especially since it's written "in general addressing kindred" who for the most part don't have a method of circumventing the bond and such.

    ie: Protean 1 or 5, Blood Sorcery, and any other method of ingesting another's vitae without suffering Vinculum/Addiction.

    Basically as following:
    Learn using Protean 1/5, drinking said kindred's vitae from a ghoul, or basically any time you could ingest a kindred's vitae. It adds a level of risk/reward to ghouls not present and somewhat justifies the paranoia kindred have.
    Last edited by Arduras; 03-19-2017, 03:34 PM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Arduras View Post
    When it says to drink a point of vitae from a vampire who knows, I think it's more of a warning "-- and all the of the consequences" as opposed to a "you must drink this with consequences".
    Especially since it's written "in general addressing kindred" who for the most part don't have a method of circumventing the bond and such.

    ie: Protean 1 or 5, Blood Sorcery, and any other method of ingesting another's vitae without suffering Vinculum/Addiction.

    Basically as following:
    Learn using Protean 1/5, drinking said kindred's vitae from a ghoul, or basically any time you could ingest a kindred's vitae. It adds a level of risk/reward to ghouls not present and somewhat justifies the paranoia kindred have.
    I'm away from home and can't check it, but are you sure that you can drink kindred vitae without vinculum or addiction using Protean 1 or 5? I'm not sure if I understood your post.
    Last edited by Edgar McAlister; 03-19-2017, 03:44 PM.

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    • #3
      You don't suffer the blood bond when using unmarked grave or mist form.

      "Should someone spill blood or Vitae upon the ground,
      she can absorb it. The ground dilutes Vitae enough that it can’t
      result in a blood bond, but to a Vitae-addicted vampire just the
      taste might be enough to drive her out of the ground, thirsty
      for more."

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      • #4
        Arduras Damn, you're right, but I guess it means that blood bond doesn't work, but the addiction works as always. Anyways not bad method

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        • #5
          If I'm understanding the question correctly, then yes, it is a warning - if you have a means of drinking another Kindred's Vitae without becoming addicted or blood bound (there are a few ways you can accomplish this if I recall correctly), then that ability is not overridden just because you are drinking their Vitae with the intent of learning one of their Clan-specific Disciplines. Specific abilities almost always take precedence over general rules.


          Onyx Path Forum Moderator

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          • #6
            Could you then, feed from their ghoul or any other instance of their vitae though? That's the question here, with potentially far-reaching consequences. Or is it that you must specifically feed from the vampire (ie straight from their wrist, not in the ground) to learn?

            I think there's an argument to be made that while you can feed from the vampire however you wish (and mitigate potential consequences) that it must still be from the vampire - not from their ghoul or just any pile of vitae, fresh from the vampire itself - but there's also the argument than if someone is using Unmarked Grave and feeding the vampire could learn from any bit of vitae (ie ghoul, spilt in combat using kindred styles, or however)
            Last edited by Arduras; 03-19-2017, 04:32 PM.

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            • #7
              If you want to cast a spell on yourself that makes you immune to vinculum or you're already under a full vinculum to someone else that's fine but I'd say no to learning signature disciplines from an unsuspecting "teacher" by attacking their ghoul, having it filtered through dirt, cement or power that lets you magically steal their vitae, or other secondhand source because it's been diluted or contaminated.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Arduras View Post
                Could you then, feed from their ghoul or any other instance of their vitae though? That's the question here, with potentially far-reaching consequences. Or is it that you must specifically feed from the vampire (ie straight from their wrist, not in the ground) to learn?
                I would probably not allow it to work by feeding from the teacher's ghoul. At that point it's kinda as much the ghoul's Vitae than her regnant's if not more so, and stuff starts getting really funky if the ghoul has drunk from more than one vampire recently. Not a headache I want to deal with.

                Originally posted by Arduras View Post
                I think there's an argument to be made that while you can feed from the vampire however you wish (and mitigate potential consequences) that it must still be from the vampire - not from their ghoul or just any pile of vitae, fresh from the vampire itself - but there's also the argument than if someone is using Unmarked Grave and feeding the vampire could learn from any bit of vitae (ie ghoul, spilt in combat using kindred styles, or however)
                I would favor the former interpretation over the latter. Personally, I'm fine with it working through an intermediate like soil or a wine glass or whatever, but once it has been ingested by someone other than the teacher, I would say it's not really the teacher's Vitae any more.


                Onyx Path Forum Moderator

                My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

                Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                • #9
                  Just how does a vampire feed on a ghoul's stored Vitae? Presumably, the ghoul would use it before being killed which is the only way I know a ghoul can be drained of Vitae by a vampire, drained dry. Ghouls lack an ability to give away Vitae. They are limited to using the Vitae internally. The rules say vampire and don't include ghouls as teachers, but if a vampire could actually drain Vitae from a ghoul it might be worth considering that disciplines can be learned if the ghoul has the knowledge. However, normally vampires are draining blood from ghouls which the vampire turns into Vitae.

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                  • #10
                    Obfuscate 3, walk up and surprise attack feed. Take the vitae BEFORE you deal health damage since it's gone first, hell knock em out first if you have to.
                    Dominate them to let you bite them.. etc.. etc..

                    It was decided by my group you have to feed from a vampire (which is fine) but Protean and Ghouls don't count. You need to feed from the vampire and if you have ways of mitigating the consequences that's fine but it must be -directly- from the vampire. But this discussion can continue.

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                    • #11
                      Wow. Why is the vitae taken first? I must have missed some obscure rule reference for that to be the case. Or maybe this is a literal reading of the feeding rules which might not have been written clearly. The pool of vitae mortals have is separate from the one a ghoul gains from kindred vitae. At a minimum, unless I have missed a rule somewhere, the mortal "vitae" should be drained before the ghoul's vitae pool for power usage.
                      Last edited by Diggs; 03-20-2017, 01:17 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Arduras View Post
                        You don't suffer the blood bond when using unmarked grave or mist form.

                        "Should someone spill blood or Vitae upon the ground,
                        she can absorb it. The ground dilutes Vitae enough that it can’t
                        result in a blood bond, but to a Vitae-addicted vampire just the
                        taste might be enough to drive her out of the ground, thirsty
                        for more."
                        I'm aware about the unmarked grave, but why the blood bond shouldn't work in mist form? I can't find anything that let understand this.

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                        • #13
                          Strix take the vitae first when they feed on a ghoul by breath drinking. I'm pretty sure vampires can't get at it at all, except by forcing the ghoul to use it to regenerate health.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                            Strix take the vitae first when they feed on a ghoul by breath drinking. I'm pretty sure vampires can't get at it at all, except by forcing the ghoul to use it to regenerate health.
                            Well I imagine an Acolyte could get at a ghoul's vitae using the numerous powers they have that let's them rip vitae from their targets but in general I'd have to agree a kindred vampire couldn't get at a ghoul's vitae reserves.

                            But this raises another interesting question, in 2nd edition, if a Theban sorceror has a ghoul assist them with preparing a vitae reliquary and the ghoul donates the vitae to be consumed, does consuming the reliquary establish a blood bond to the ghoul's vitae donor or does consuming the reliquary contents only induce potential vitae addiction and not a vinculum?

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                            • #15
                              The ritual for the reliquary states that it gets the Vitae from the ritualist's body. I don't think it can be donated, unless I'm missing something. Even if it could, I imagine the "ghouls can't spill vitae" rule is, in part, to avoid that situation, so I wouldn't allow it.

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