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  • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post



    Undead Parasites. Otherworldly Spirits. Creatures of Dreamstuffs. Enlightened Mystics. Frankenstein's Monsters.


    .... Transdimensional Robots!
    And they don't fit because...?

    The only reason I see why people think they don't fit together is the Magic vs. Science aesthetic that's been prevalent in some of the more famous works of fiction, which I consider exactly that; an aesthetic. No more, no less.

    And hey guys, I thought we were in a Vampire forum?


    MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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    • Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post

      And they don't fit because...?

      The only reason I see why people think they don't fit together is the Magic vs. Science aesthetic that's been prevalent in some of the more famous works of fiction, which I consider exactly that; an aesthetic. No more, no less.

      And hey guys, I thought we were in a Vampire forum?


      That is the reason why I say they don't fit, yes. And I was merely explaining that in my previous post. I got into WoD because I wanted a modern day supernatural setting, and the GMC (optional, though it may be), almost ruined that for me.


      Honestly, though, whether you play 1st, 2nd or mix and match edition is a matter of preference, I would guess. Personally, I prefer 1st edition, since what I've heard about 2nd either doesn't sit right with me, or just felt like an unnecessary change to begin with.

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      • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
        I got into WoD because I wanted a modern day supernatural setting, and the GMC (optional, though it may be), almost ruined that for me.
        You must have hated the blue book stuff which had sci-fi conspiracy stuff like government experiments, psychic powers, and Men in Black then? Mortals games were very X-files, and X-files was full of sci-fi and supernatural stuff without any aesthetic or thematic clashes.

        Demons aren't transdimensional robots anymore than werewolves are spirit-cops. Demons are fallen angels. Their god just happens to run off alien physics rather than being a wizard because things made by Gods must be physics not spells or they aren't really Gods.
        Last edited by milo v3; 05-04-2017, 10:30 PM.

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        • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
          Undead Parasites. Otherworldly Spirits. Creatures of Dreamstuffs. Enlightened Mystics. Frankenstein's Monsters.


          .... Former Servants of an Uncaring Demiurge!
          Fixed that for ya.

          (Also, where'd you get transdimensional? It's like you haven't even read Demon.)


          Onyx Path Forum Moderator

          My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

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          • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
            (Also, where'd you get transdimensional? It's like you haven't even read Demon.)
            Admittedly angels are transdimensional, being able to travel between coordinates on whichever dimension concerns "Materialness". But they lose most of that when they get cut off from God and have to shove their essence into the closest meat-suit.

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            • Originally posted by milo v3 View Post
              Admittedly angels are transdimensional, being able to travel between coordinates on whichever dimension concerns "Materialness".
              I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you're talking about the fact that they are ephemeral entities and are typically Twilight but can Materialize, that's not dimensional travel. In either case they are present in the material world, they are just shifting between states of Ephemera. If you're talking about them traveling instantly from one location in physical space to another without crossing the intervening space, that's not traveling between different dimensions, it's just a very efficient means of travel within one dimension. I guess arguably you could say it's using 4th-and-higher spatial dimensions and spacial folding, but that's a different meaning of the word dimension.
              Last edited by Charlaquin; 05-04-2017, 11:06 PM.


              Onyx Path Forum Moderator

              My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

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              • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                I guess arguably you could say it's using 4th-and-higher spatial dimensions and spacial folding, but that's a different meaning of the word dimension.
                I was using the spatial meaning of dimension. Being out of phase is basically just moving on dimension m, while keeping t,x,y,z identical. It was the only way I could see them being described as Transdimensional beings without it being a pointless statement or incorrect.
                Last edited by milo v3; 05-04-2017, 11:26 PM.

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                • The God Machine and Demons fit in the Chronicles of Darkness better than this conversation fits in this thread. Moving along.

                  Anybody remember any rules in 1e that were innovative and useful that were left on the cutting room floor, not replaced with something better?

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                  • Originally posted by milo v3 View Post
                    You must have hated the blue book stuff which had sci-fi conspiracy stuff like government experiments, psychic powers, and Men in Black then? Mortals games were very X-files, and X-files was full of sci-fi and supernatural stuff without any aesthetic or thematic clashes.

                    Demons aren't transdimensional robots anymore than werewolves are spirit-cops. Demons are fallen angels. Their god just happens to run off alien physics rather than being a wizard because things made by Gods must be physics not spells or they aren't really Gods.

                    Not really, I don't play mortals; I went straight for the monsters. In fact, I almost never play a pure human in any role playing setting I find myself in. Also, in fact, my first play through of any game that gives me the option is going to be a villain who tries to wipe out humanity (or at least mess up its world as much as possible). And I don't consider psychic powers to be in the realm of sci-fi, nor do government experiments have to strictly fall into that category, either. It's quite possible for the people in charge to take an interest in the occult, especially when they have entire task forces specifically created to hunt it down.

                    As for the men in black, the book seems to indicate they are supernatural in some capacity, as well. Being that they have solid black eyes and generate an aura of fear. That doesn't sound like a typical government agent, to me.


                    ---------------------------


                    To Charlaquin: I haven't read Demon, actually. I wasn't interested in God Machine, so I saw absolutely no reason to pick up a game that specifically caters to it. But the idea that I got from reading through GMC is that it is some kind of hyper advanced technology that exists on multiple different planes simultaneously. It also specifically talks about building servants, like the angels. And how they're deactivated when the GMC has no use for them. Pretty hard not to immediately think robot / android / cyborg when reading words like that. And Demons came across as the Ghost in the Machine who managed to obtain sentience and became a rogue AI.




                    Last edited by Nyrufa; 05-05-2017, 05:58 AM.

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                    • All the "sci-fi" stuff around the God-Machine is basically just aesthetics. It's a sentient something and dressing it in terms of programming, occult matrices, constructing/deactivating angels, etc. is just a way to visualise it and create a terminology so you can talk about it.
                      It's just as supernatural, mystical and scientific as Supernal magic, the Principle, and Sekhem sorcery.

                      Edit: I'm not trying to convince you to like the God-Machine or DtD. I'm just clarifying it. You might still dislike it and that's fine. Smaken är som baken.
                      Last edited by Tessie; 05-05-2017, 06:46 AM.

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                      • Originally posted by Diggs View Post
                        The God Machine and Demons fit in the Chronicles of Darkness better than this conversation fits in this thread. Moving along.

                        Anybody remember any rules in 1e that were innovative and useful that were left on the cutting room floor, not replaced with something better?
                        I think it's more a question that there is just so much more content out for 1E already, if you want to use a lot of content from the 1E sourcebooks it may just be easier to just do the whole thing in 1E rather than spending the time translating all of it to 2E. And again, like I mentioned before, there is the problem of books like Inferno, which just don't work with the new rules.

                        Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                        To Charlaquin: I haven't read Demon, actually. I wasn't interested in God Machine, so I saw absolutely no reason to pick up a game that specifically caters to it. But the idea that I got from reading through GMC is that it is some kind of hyper advanced technology that exists on multiple different planes simultaneously. It also specifically talks about building servants, like the angels. And how they're deactivated when the GMC has no use for them. Pretty hard not to immediately think robot / android / cyborg when reading words like that. And Demons came across as the Ghost in the Machine who managed to obtain sentience and became a rogue AI.
                        In regards to the God Machine and Demon. I get the feeling it was thought up in part to avoid drama. You see, the original Demon: The Fallen was criticized for being too "Christian-centric", in other words; the lore drew too heavily from Judaeo/Christian theology as-opposed to other faiths/mythologies for some people's liking. Something tells me these complaints would be more vocal (but probably still a minority) if it were published today. This left the publishers with a dilemma: risk having these complaints with the new version or try to expand the background lore to be more inclusive.

                        The problem with things like demons/angels/God, as opposed to other supernaturals, is that they are far more relevant to things many people believe in today, often very strongly. There's often a paranoia about offending these beliefs whenever you portray them in fiction. If they expanded the base of real world religions they drew on it would, in their eyes, run the risk of upsetting more people.

                        It's only a theory of mine, but I can't help but wonder that the writers went with the weird techno-thriller angle because they were afraid of navigating the minefield that comes with addressing religious themes: "Does this mean God exists in WoD? if so, which God? How will our religious readers react if we get things wrong? Will our non-religious readers be put off by the suggestion some religions might actually be true?"

                        I hope this isn't the case and they were just being creative, but I still wonder if that was part of the reason they chose such a different path than what people like me were expecting (and hoping for). In any case people who would complain about the above things would be a very small minority.

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                        • Originally posted by the_1990 View Post

                          I think it's more a question that there is just so much more content out for 1E already, if you want to use a lot of content from the 1E sourcebooks it may just be easier to just do the whole thing in 1E rather than spending the time translating all of it to 2E. And again, like I mentioned before, there is the problem of books like Inferno, which just don't work with the new rules.



                          In regards to the God Machine and Demon. I get the feeling it was thought up in part to avoid drama. You see, the original Demon: The Fallen was criticized for being too "Christian-centric", in other words; the lore drew too heavily from Judaeo/Christian theology as-opposed to other faiths/mythologies for some people's liking. Something tells me these complaints would be more vocal (but probably still a minority) if it were published today. This left the publishers with a dilemma: risk having these complaints with the new version or try to expand the background lore to be more inclusive.

                          The problem with things like demons/angels/God, as opposed to other supernaturals, is that they are far more relevant to things many people believe in today, often very strongly. There's often a paranoia about offending these beliefs whenever you portray them in fiction. If they expanded the base of real world religions they drew on it would, in their eyes, run the risk of upsetting more people.

                          It's only a theory of mine, but I can't help but wonder that the writers went with the weird techno-thriller angle because they were afraid of navigating the minefield that comes with addressing religious themes: "Does this mean God exists in WoD? if so, which God? How will our religious readers react if we get things wrong? Will our non-religious readers be put off by the suggestion some religions might actually be true?"

                          I hope this isn't the case and they were just being creative, but I still wonder if that was part of the reason they chose such a different path than what people like me were expecting (and hoping for). In any case people who would complain about the above things would be a very small minority.


                          It was my understanding the entire meta-plot to World of Darkness revolved around the Judaeo/Christian theology.


                          And one might say that in Requiem, they didn't do too much better. The Judaeo/Christian vampires get an entire covenant all to themselves. But as for any other religious group (wiccan, hindu, buddhism, shinto, voodoo, est)? Meh, just toss them all in with the Circle of the Crone and call it a day. Don't forget to point out that they're involved in ritualistic sacrifices and blood orgies!
                          Last edited by Nyrufa; 05-05-2017, 07:39 AM.

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                          • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post



                            It was my understanding the entire meta-plot to World of Darkness revolved around the Judaeo/Christian theology.


                            And one might say that in Requiem, they didn't do too much better. The Judaeo/Christian vampires get an entire covenant all to themselves. But as for any other religious group? Meh, just toss them all in with the Circle of the Crone and call it a day. Don't forget to point out that they're involved in ritualistic sacrifices and blood orgies!
                            It's hard to avoid to be honest, much of the Gothic fiction WoD was inspired by, including Vampires, was itself based in Christian European folklore, in which the conflict between God and Satan was said to affect everything. I guess the writers were just worried it would be a bigger problem with a new Demon game because demons and angels actually appear in the Holy Books of many religions.

                            As Charlaquin and others have said, the God Machine can be easily ignored, which for players like me is good. I just hope we get a 2E Inferno some time in the future.

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                            • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                              And one might say that in Requiem, they didn't do too much better. The Judaeo/Christian vampires get an entire covenant all to themselves. But as for any other religious group (wiccan, hindu, buddhism, shinto, voodoo, est)? Meh, just toss them all in with the Circle of the Crone and call it a day.
                              Of those, probably only wiccan and voodoo would be incorporated into the circle of the crone. Shinto fits into the Ume House convenant of Japan not Circle of the Crone.

                              In Requiem, covenants are different depending on what part of the world you're in. If you go to India, you might find that the main covenants are a hinduism based one, a bhuddism based one, and a caste based covenant.
                              Last edited by milo v3; 05-05-2017, 08:14 AM.

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                              • Originally posted by the_1990 View Post

                                It's hard to avoid to be honest, much of the Gothic fiction WoD was inspired by, including Vampires, was itself based in Christian European folklore, in which the conflict between God and Satan was said to affect everything. I guess the writers were just worried it would be a bigger problem with a new Demon game because demons and angels actually appear in the Holy Books of many religions.

                                As Charlaquin and others have said, the God Machine can be easily ignored, which for players like me is good. I just hope we get a 2E Inferno some time in the future.


                                Yeah, that's the option I chose to with. Just chucked the GMC completely. Doesn't exist, never did exist, never will exist in my games.


                                Ironically, Masquerade seemed to be more diversified in the vampire mythos, being that the 13 clans and their respective bloodlines had elements from all over the world, rather than focusing on the European interpretations. Though I am to understand some of these interpretations were... shall we say 'extremely racist?'

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