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[2E] Alternative Daeva Clan Bane

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  • #16
    Basically, everything that Nosimplehiway say - almost. 😉

    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    I would suggest, wyrdHamster, just talk to your ST and see if they will let you use the old weakness.
    I'm a ST and judge on setting-mechanical implications here. 😉 Still, they are NPCs vampires, so it's still more like how I should play them in scenes than actual Clans balance issues from players perspective.

    I just wondering how to recreate 1E Daeva Clan Bane with now Dirge and Mask Anchors - Assume 1E-like Daeva have extra Vice and lose ( instead gaining) Willpower if they do not indulge it in the scene? This way would character lose all WP just for playing 'sane' in particular session - and Daeva would be more mad than those strucked by Malkavia. 🙁

    EDIT: I use Man & Beast for names of Kindred 2E Anchors in my games, but I was told that Dirge is still 'Beast archetype', an by this should be Vice-like - Would just implanted 1E Daeva Bane here, but mechanics of new Anchors makes them play a bit more complicated, with those 1WP/All WP options on them. 🙁
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 07-15-2017, 01:11 AM.


    My Hubs - MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks
    MtAw 2E - History of Awakened - (almost) canonical game timeline of events
    WtF 2E - Alternative werewolves myths from around the world

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    • #17
      I wouldnt understand why anyone ever should implement the old Daeva weakness. It just takes away agency and choice from the characters. "Oh you don't think your charachter is having an avarice hard-on against trying to screw over your family over the testament from you mother, well you better pay that double willpower point-cost then"
      Yeah really gives choice, deepens character progression and lets you play the character in any meaningful way.
      Like every rule that gives a penalty for not acting it's a bad rule, you want rules that make characters engaged.

      And by the way the 2ed bane gives a dependency, its not sexual, loving or anything like that, unless fitting of course. It's an obsession of mind, emotion and body, that can and i guess usually will take the form of attraction.
      For the Daeva clan bane, i read what the bane says , what the condition they get says and the rule part of second stage blood bound.
      Is this love in all cases? Yes i do believe so, but it can be a broader and less sexual/attraction-focused kind of love of course. Like the love to a friend or family member or just plain emotional obsession like a teenagers obsession with their first idolized celebrity.

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      • #18
        I'm running NPC in mind as Blood Potency 6-8 Elder, so he will only drink vampire blood from then on - When Daeva Clan Bane is based on drinking from mortals, it do not have sense for him as limitation.


        My Hubs - MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks
        MtAw 2E - History of Awakened - (almost) canonical game timeline of events
        WtF 2E - Alternative werewolves myths from around the world

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        • #19
          Use the Elder Banes from Thousand Years of Night. If I remember correctly it simply upgrades the Bane to trigger on everything, not just humans.


          Bloodline: The Stygians

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          • #20
            Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
            I'm running NPC in mind as Blood Potency 6-8 Elder, so he will only drink vampire blood from then on - When Daeva Clan Bane is based on drinking from mortals, it do not have sense for him as limitation.
            Honestly, with the Daeva clan bane as it is in this version of Vampire, it really doesn't make sense for the Daeva to actually belong to the Lancea Sanctum since they become inappropriately sympathetic to their human prey or utterly depraved about ensuring they don't get attached to them. Either scenario makes them an ongoing threat to the Masquerade. Or they're just covenant ballast, they don't contribute except to weight membership numbers based on a token line about pretending each clan has representation in each covenant.

            But he's still addicted to the humans he was drinking from prior to hitting BP 6. That only goes away when they die. And if he ghouled them, they aren't dying any time soon. I'm not sure the other Sanctified will be cool with this character's pet humans influencing covenant policy.

            You could also just make him a member of another clan bloodline and just give him Majesty 5.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Poseur View Post
              I wouldnt understand why anyone ever should implement the old Daeva weakness. It just takes away agency and choice from the characters. "Oh you don't think your charachter is having an avarice hard-on against trying to screw over your family over the testament from you mother, well you better pay that double willpower point-cost then"
              Yeah really gives choice, deepens character progression and lets you play the character in any meaningful way.
              Like every rule that gives a penalty for not acting it's a bad rule, you want rules that make characters engaged..
              Well, it isn't great for every character concept, of course, but lots of truly great stories have featured characters who have lost their free agency, either through mental disorders or simple situational limits.

              Captain Ahab from Moby Dick springs to mind. The mother from Sophie's Choice. Jack from the Shining. The whole cast in Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf, especially the son. The title character from Dexter. Caroline from Traffic. Smeagol from the Lord of the Rings. Dick and Nicole from Tender is the Night didn't have the free agency to avoid taking away one another's free agency. In Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore, the problem is mostly situational, though Alice doesn't help the matter much.

              Remember how Mrs. Robinson from the Graduate has so little free agency Simon and Garfunkle wrote a whole song about it? While on the subject of Simon and Garfunkel, no one knows what Julio was doing down by the schoolyard, but it sure limited his freedom when they stuck him in the House of Detention. It's not easy to get kicked out of Queens.

              The Great Gatsby, Lolita, the Grapes of Wrath, Catch-22, 1984, Native Son, the Color Purple, the Bridge of San Luis Rey, Catcher in the Rye... they all feature protagonists who, in some sense, are not in complete control of their own actions. In theory, any of them could have just said, "Screw this. I don't like this story and I'm leaving." But they don't.

              Lack of agency is basically the whole premise of both Valley of the Dolls and Romeo and Juliet. (Starcross'd lovers in both stories...)

              Jeez, John Updike pretty much built his entire literary career writing on upper-middle class characters trapped in their own lives.

              And, if you really want to see what the old Daeva weakness looks like in action, go watch the 1970 movie, "The Only Game in Town" about a compulsive gambler pianist (Warren Beatty) and an aging showgirl alcoholic (Liz Taylor), in the go-go boots era of Las Vegas.

              I'm hard pressed, in fact, to think of a single really compelling literary character who has complete free agency, unbound by either inner demons or outer circumstances. Those two are kind of the basis of all conflict, and therefore plot and character development.

              I suppose... maybe the literary character called "God" (as opposed to the theological figure) in the first part of the Book of Genesis had free agency, but after the whole apple incident... oy, those humans, such trouble!

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              • #22
                Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                [/B] I just wondering how to recreate 1E Daeva Clan Bane with now Dirge and Mask Anchors - Assume 1E-like Daeva have extra Vice and lose ( instead gaining) Willpower if they do not indulge it in the scene? This way would character lose all WP just for playing 'sane' in particular session - and Daeva would be more mad than those strucked by Malkavia. 🙁
                Have you considered using the Obsessed condition and focusing it on a (small-v) vice?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post

                  Have you considered using the Obsessed condition and focusing it on a (small-v) vice?
                  Hmm, this could work. But instead as whole blood dependency then? Or with it? With Obssesed for this character like 'heretics in flock'?


                  My Hubs - MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks
                  MtAw 2E - History of Awakened - (almost) canonical game timeline of events
                  WtF 2E - Alternative werewolves myths from around the world

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Well, being obsessed with "heretics in flock" doesn't imply a specific action or opinion of those heretics. Is the character secretly titillated by the idea, or does he reject heresy completely because he fears it in himself? Technically, you could satisfy the obsession simply by making a scrap book of all the heretics' doing sassy poses.

                    Consider two possible obsessions: "uncovering the slightest moral deviancy, before it grows into full apostasy" or "destroying the single most heretical member, to improve the over-all community of faith". They sound similar, but result in a very different outcome.

                    The first leads to a sort of self-policing police state where the Lancea uses all sorts of advanced investigative techniques, including sheer paranoia, to quash the slightest deviancy, possibly even before the heretic realizes he is a heretic. Expect a city in which everyone is constantly trying to throw the other parishioners under the bus, to remove suspicion from themselves, but doing so as subtly as possible. Each member will have to constantly out-virtue one another for fear of being open to an accusation. In-fighting and betrayal, blackmail and revenge fueled indictments will become the domain's bread and butter. Picture the Salem Witch Trials, where logic falls apart. If someone looks innocent, they must be guilty, for the devil is crafty like that.

                    The second leads to an angry mob looking for the reason their sanctity has been slipping. Surely, it can't be the fault of the faithful that evil and disharmony exist among us, it's those people over there! There will be cycles of public demonization of formerly sacrosanct members, portrayed as the worst kind of betrayer, the betrayer from within, followed by cycles of quiet, stoic moral certitude. Everyone knows that someone, maybe you, maybe me, will be the next selected by the mob for the burning stake. So, avoid eye-contact, repeat the well-rehearsed slogans, and don't ever let yourself get noticed, or worst of all, envied. This is more like the feel of the novel, "The Handmaids Tale", where an attempt is made to make the world seem normal, but there is an almost nihilistic acceptance that no matter how moral you are, sooner or later your number may come up. Then, in a single night of sermons, and flames, and blood, and screams, and, finally, silent ashes, you will be destroyed.

                    So, try describing the obsession as a goal, with a method attached, and that will give you more texture, both for your character and for the atmosphere of your community.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by tsusasi View Post

                      Honestly, with the Daeva clan bane as it is in this version of Vampire, it really doesn't make sense for the Daeva to actually belong to the Lancea Sanctum since they become inappropriately sympathetic to their human prey or utterly depraved about ensuring they don't get attached to them.
                      That sounds like the vampires problem to overcome not the systems, the high BP observation is valid but your flaw making things hard is your flaw doing it's job and if a kindred wants a shot at the grace of God then it's up to them to work round it.
                      Originally posted by Blood&Smoke
                      Have you ever blushed when someone's name came up, then lashed out when someone accused you of having feelings for them?
                      Sounds like something that could work very well when applied to a member of the Sanctum.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post

                        Well, it isn't great for every character concept, of course, but lots of truly great stories have featured characters who have lost their free agency, either through mental disorders or simple situational limits.

                        Captain Ahab from Moby Dick springs to mind. The mother from Sophie's Choice. Jack from the Shining. The whole cast in Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf, especially the son. The title character from Dexter. Caroline from Traffic. Smeagol from the Lord of the Rings. Dick and Nicole from Tender is the Night didn't have the free agency to avoid taking away one another's free agency. In Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore, the problem is mostly situational, though Alice doesn't help the matter much.

                        Remember how Mrs. Robinson from the Graduate has so little free agency Simon and Garfunkle wrote a whole song about it? While on the subject of Simon and Garfunkel, no one knows what Julio was doing down by the schoolyard, but it sure limited his freedom when they stuck him in the House of Detention. It's not easy to get kicked out of Queens.

                        The Great Gatsby, Lolita, the Grapes of Wrath, Catch-22, 1984, Native Son, the Color Purple, the Bridge of San Luis Rey, Catcher in the Rye... they all feature protagonists who, in some sense, are not in complete control of their own actions. In theory, any of them could have just said, "Screw this. I don't like this story and I'm leaving." But they don't.

                        Lack of agency is basically the whole premise of both Valley of the Dolls and Romeo and Juliet. (Starcross'd lovers in both stories...)

                        Jeez, John Updike pretty much built his entire literary career writing on upper-middle class characters trapped in their own lives.

                        And, if you really want to see what the old Daeva weakness looks like in action, go watch the 1970 movie, "The Only Game in Town" about a compulsive gambler pianist (Warren Beatty) and an aging showgirl alcoholic (Liz Taylor), in the go-go boots era of Las Vegas.

                        I'm hard pressed, in fact, to think of a single really compelling literary character who has complete free agency, unbound by either inner demons or outer circumstances. Those two are kind of the basis of all conflict, and therefore plot and character development.

                        I suppose... maybe the literary character called "God" (as opposed to the theological figure) in the first part of the Book of Genesis had free agency, but after the whole apple incident... oy, those humans, such trouble!


                        Even though i don't know all of the ones you namedrop in your wall of text I'm pretty sure most of them don't get a penalty for action out their different compulsions and problems. In the easiest way, i prefer carrot to the stick. And the old Daeva weakness is a giant stick to the balls.
                        Like that's why the Conditions in 2ed is good, they give a carrot for playing out things that are bad or take away the characters agency. It doesnt hit you in the face with a meta-resource-penalty for thinking it would be more dramatic or more interesting, or whatever to play the character a certain way.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                          So, try describing the obsession as a goal, with a method attached, and that will give you more texture, both for your character and for the atmosphere of your community.
                          I run this as crossover Domain, with vampires - and mostly Lancea Sanctum leading - over few werewolves and mages. So even when I want rather oppresive LS over Kindred - I do not believe that Uratha or Awakened would go all over their religion beside 'they call the shots in city, we do not want to pies Archbishop'. Maybe aiming for something like 'Handmaiden' s Tale' America regime, where all the LS are trying to be more holy than a pope and prusure others to follow - but in the end, they let other monsters or even Covenants to be 'heretics'. City even have 3 Ordo Dracul vampires at university - but it's the most they can have, with none Circle of Crone in Domain.


                          My Hubs - MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks
                          MtAw 2E - History of Awakened - (almost) canonical game timeline of events
                          WtF 2E - Alternative werewolves myths from around the world

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Poseur View Post



                            Even though i don't know all of the ones you namedrop in your wall of text I'm pretty sure most of them don't get a penalty for action out their different compulsions and problems. In the easiest way, i prefer carrot to the stick. And the old Daeva weakness is a giant stick to the balls.
                            Like that's why the Conditions in 2ed is good, they give a carrot for playing out things that are bad or take away the characters agency. It doesnt hit you in the face with a meta-resource-penalty for thinking it would be more dramatic or more interesting, or whatever to play the character a certain way.
                            Okay, we have different styles of play, and that's not a bad thing. Vive la difference, and all that.

                            Personally, for me, I think that the endless parade of Participation Trophies that is the 21st century is a bit bland, narrative-wise. A story in which the characters don't have significant flaws, limitations, or challenges to either overcome or accept isn't a story I enjoy. That just feels, to me, like a video game with all the cheat codes enabled.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post

                              Okay, we have different styles of play, and that's not a bad thing. Vive la difference, and all that.

                              Personally, for me, I think that the endless parade of Participation Trophies that is the 21st century is a bit bland, narrative-wise. A story in which the characters don't have significant flaws, limitations, or challenges to either overcome or accept isn't a story I enjoy. That just feels, to me, like a video game with all the cheat codes enabled.

                              Definitely a difference but it comes around as a bit condescending comparing others play-style with all the cheat codes enabled and an endless parade of "Participation Trophies".
                              I think if this is gonna be the level of discussion we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                                I run this as crossover Domain, with vampires - and mostly Lancea Sanctum leading - over few werewolves and mages. So even when I want rather oppresive LS over Kindred - .
                                This is in Uppsala right? Might be just me, but as a swede it's actually really weird thinking that one of our largest cities would be lead by LS, or that LS would be very influential in Sweden. Like sweden is one of the most secular countries around and one of the most left-ish and progressive. Like the themes in Sweden don't yell Lancea et Sactum to me. I guess the old bishop could be old and powerful enough to still be prince, but holy cow would the opposition be greater year by year and fewer and fewer members joining his covenant. Just my thoughts thou, you are offcourse in your right to do what you want.

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